Discussion:
Of lane changes and yielding to cars entering highways
(too old to reply)
Forest
2003-08-11 01:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Ed, Ed, Ed, don't do it; come back to our team, we need you. Come on, fight
the good fight, stick with us...
zzz
2003-08-11 02:44:16 UTC
Permalink
I drive in SW Florida, where 95% of drivers are from either the Northeast or
the Midwest. I drive 30 miles on a 4-lane divided US highway to work each
way and have a mix of highway and city/town environment. Given my 15-year
You've only been commuting for 15 years and you're giving up?
1. Employ the courtesy of moving over to the other lane to allow merging
traffic to safely enter the roadway ahead of me. I have found that drivers,
for the most part, will move into whatever lane they want regardless of
which lane I occupy, so that they cut me off regardless of which lane I'm
using.
This shouldn't be an issue. You either are far enough ahead of them for
them to have to fall in behind you, or you're not. If you're not,
you're going to either have to allow them in, move over, or if their
entry lane ends, run into them.
2. Employ a turn signal to announce intent to change lanes either. Where I
live and drive, using the turn signal seems to be an invitation for cars in
the desired lane to speed up and block me from safely entering ahead of
them. I used to turn my blinker on for a few seconds before switching,
since I figured the drivers needed to know of my intention ahead of time.
After seeing several cars speed up just to close the gap into which I might
have entered, I figured they'd get no more courtesy warnings from me.
The trick is to not let them do that to you. You can tell it really
pisses them off too. The very idea of someone being in front of them,
even if your being there doesn't even mean they aren't affected in the
least by your being in front of them..
So much for courtesy and civility...I decided to join 'em.
What I have *yet* to do is to remain in the passing lane and block all cars
behind me that wish to pass. I still move back to the right to allow cars
who wish to pass.
As you should. My only reaction to rude drivers is to take my time
moving back into the right lane if the asshole behind me rode my bumper
while I was passing traffic.
Ed
Ed Paul
2003-08-11 10:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by zzz
Post by zzz
You've only been commuting for 15 years and you're giving up?
:-))
Actually, it's only gotten bad in the last several years. I happen to live
and drive in the area of the county that has escaped the major growth in
population. It is now growing since the other preferred areas have become
saturated, hence, the increase in traffic.

In 1988, when I first started commuting in this area, our county's
population was about 180,000. It has now surpassed 400,000, according to the
2000 census. There were no traffic lights along the 25 mile open highway
stretch that I drive daily. Now there are 6, all bunched up within a 7-mile
stretch at the very beginning of my commute to work.

Heck, when I started to drive in 1962 at the age of 15, Florida had a
population of just under 5.5 million. We used to be taught such things as
how to handle 4-way stop signs, merging traffic, entering from a 2-lane
roadway unto a 4-lane, etc. It was easy when everyone was local and we all
learned the same thing. The state population is now 17,500,000 and growing.
Now, different driving habits from different parts of the country.
Post by zzz
Post by zzz
1. Employ the courtesy of moving over to the other lane to allow merging
traffic to safely enter the roadway ahead of me.
<snip>
Post by zzz
This shouldn't be an issue. You either are far enough ahead of them for
them to have to fall in behind you, or you're not. If you're not,
you're going to either have to allow them in, move over, or if their
entry lane ends, run into them.
Actually, there are no true merging lanes like you find on an interstate.
The traffic I was referring to entering the highway came from
cross-intersections controlled on their sides by stop signs and, now, by 6
traffic lights (red on right allowed in each case). So, basically, these are
drivers that roll (not stop) right through the stop signs/red lights and
turn into the highway in the same direction I'm travelling, rehgardless of
how much room there is before I get to their point of entry.

What really irks me is that there may not be any traffic at all behind me
and, yet, they'll still make the right turn and attempt to enter the highway
ahead of me instead of waiting the extra 0.6 seconds it will take for me to
pass them.
aunt millie
2003-08-11 03:11:32 UTC
Permalink
I drive in SW Florida, where 95% of drivers are from either the Northeast or
the Midwest. I drive 30 miles on a 4-lane divided US highway to work each
way and have a mix of highway and city/town environment. Given my 15-year
1. Employ the courtesy of moving over to the other lane to allow merging
traffic to safely enter the roadway ahead of me. I have found that drivers,
for the most part, will move into whatever lane they want regardless of
which lane I occupy, so that they cut me off regardless of which lane I'm
using.
Hell - I've never done that. It's up to the merging traffic to find
an empty spot.
2. Employ a turn signal to announce intent to change lanes either. Where I
live and drive, using the turn signal seems to be an invitation for cars in
the desired lane to speed up and block me from safely entering ahead of
them. I used to turn my blinker on for a few seconds before switching,
since I figured the drivers needed to know of my intention ahead of time.
After seeing several cars speed up just to close the gap into which I might
have entered, I figured they'd get no more courtesy warnings from me.
I've never done that either. I wait until the opening exists and then
hit the blinker and make my lane change
J999w
2003-08-11 03:58:30 UTC
Permalink
I don't understand the hostility.

Driving is for getting from point A to point B.

I'll control my car, you control your car.

If you can't control your car, I'm getting as far from you as possible.

I'll go my speed and you can go as fast or slow as you want. If I can't get out
of your way fast enough, GO AROUND, otherwise, take your valium and relax. If
you're going slower than me, I'll go around. Simple.

As long as I get to where I'm going, I don't care what you do ... but if you
get a ticket or crash from doing something stupid, too bad, you'll get no
sympathy from me !

jw
milwaukee
Brent P
2003-08-11 05:24:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by J999w
I don't understand the hostility.
Driving is for getting from point A to point B.
I'll control my car, you control your car.
If you can't control your car, I'm getting as far from you as possible.
I'll go my speed and you can go as fast or slow as you want. If I can't get out
of your way fast enough, GO AROUND, otherwise, take your valium and relax. If
you're going slower than me, I'll go around. Simple.
As long as I get to where I'm going, I don't care what you do ... but if you
get a ticket or crash from doing something stupid, too bad, you'll get no
sympathy from me !
Typical american me first, fuck you attitude is what I read from you post.

what is so hard about keeping right except to pass and learning how to
merge? Seriously, sometimes I think if I get stuck behind another retard
that thinks it's ok to merge into 75 mph traffic at 35 mph I am going to
NASCAR bump pass him on to the shoulder!

Tonight I am coming out of the I90/94 express on to the edens, this is
a left lane ramp BTW, that's merging from the ramp into the edens LEFT
LANE. This lane free-flows at just under 80 mph. And as usual I am stuck
behind someone who thinks it's perfectly ok to merge at 30-50 mph
below the speed of traffic.
Mot Adv
2003-08-11 10:52:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brent P
Post by J999w
I don't understand the hostility.
Driving is for getting from point A to point B.
I'll control my car, you control your car.
If you can't control your car, I'm getting as far from you as possible.
I'll go my speed and you can go as fast or slow as you want.
Nothing wrong with this . . .


If I can't get out
Post by Brent P
Post by J999w
of your way fast enough, GO AROUND, otherwise, take your valium and relax. If
you're going slower than me, I'll go around. Simple.
If you 'keep right', and not commute in the middle or centre lanes on the
Interstate traffic will flow much better....
Post by Brent P
Post by J999w
As long as I get to where I'm going, I don't care what you do ... but if you
get a ticket or crash from doing something stupid, too bad, you'll get no
sympathy from me !
What if it is you who crash?
Post by Brent P
Typical american me first, fuck you attitude is what I read from you post.
Brent I hear where your coming from squire . .
Post by Brent P
what is so hard about keeping right except to pass and learning how to
merge? Seriously, sometimes I think if I get stuck behind another retard
that thinks it's ok to merge into 75 mph traffic at 35 mph I am going to
NASCAR bump pass him on to the shoulder!
Is this the sort of idiot that joins the freeway and moves straight out into
the middle lane/s??
Post by Brent P
Tonight I am coming out of the I90/94 express on to the edens, this is
a left lane ramp BTW, that's merging from the ramp into the edens LEFT
LANE. This lane free-flows at just under 80 mph. And as usual I am stuck
behind someone who thinks it's perfectly ok to merge at 30-50 mph
below the speed of traffic.
Bloody hell, two obvious problems, the idiot cannot drive or quite likely
'chooses' to drive poorly, secondly - those left hand exit and entry points
must go! It takes a little determination to write and get works on a 'to
do' list!

Somthing else, if we accept that we learn to drive via each States 'learner
driver manual', then it follows text imparting 'keep right unless
overtaking/passing' MUST be included in the handbook. I cannot emphasis
necessity this enough, we had the same problems in NSW Aus as you - I wrote
the text for this State AND mentioned to not use the middle lane/s either
when the, so to describe' 'slow' lane is clear for some distance.

Brent, over 5 - 8 years as generations of drivers obtain licenses, this lane
discipline improves. The down side is that the State is surrounded by
'dumb' States. The answer is to ensure my text is included in all other
States, it will be...

That, and rear fog text:-)

Never give in, - but do drive like them once in a while for a few minutes -
if this helps you 'show them' what they are drive like??? Scary, but
perhaps they'd not even know.....

JP



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Mot Adv
2003-08-12 12:00:06 UTC
Permalink
"Brent P" <
Post by Mot Adv
Never give in, - but do drive like them once in a while for a few minutes -
if this helps you 'show them' what they are drive like??? Scary, but
perhaps they'd not even know.....
IL just passed a keep right except to pass law. However this has been
widely interpeted as a bad thing by the moron masses. Unless the ISP
starts enforcing this I see nothing hopeful. But recently I seem to
have gotten a state senator interested in the 85th percentile method,
hopefully he'll learn more on his own.
From my experience here in the land of sunshine, it does take a few years,
even with sign posted warnings for folk to adjust, one must be patient with
this and set the example.

This should improve and it has only been a short time for many States yeah?

JP


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Ricardo
2003-08-12 13:29:15 UTC
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Post by Mot Adv
From my experience here in the land of sunshine, it does take a few years,
even with sign posted warnings for folk to adjust, one must be patient with
this and set the example.
This should improve and it has only been a short time for many States yeah?
"Keep right except to pass" is a relatively new law in some states,
a relatively old one in others. However, virtually all of North
America, barring a few bassackwards places in the U.S. (MD, NC...),
require that slower traffic defer to the right lane or as close to
the nearside shoulder as is practicable so as to facilitate
overtaking by faster traffic. These laws have been on the books
since basically the dawn of automotive time.
--
ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada
e-mail: remove spamfreezone to reply
for liability purposes: I *always* obey the law.
'89 grand am le, garaged; '91 mx6 gt
aunt millie
2003-08-11 14:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brent P
what is so hard about keeping right except to pass and learning how to
merge? Seriously, sometimes I think if I get stuck behind another retard
that thinks it's ok to merge into 75 mph traffic at 35 mph I am going to
NASCAR bump pass him on to the shoulder!
One more reason we need to lower speed limits to say 55. Then the
merging problem would be greatly reduced.
Nate Nagel
2003-08-11 17:33:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by aunt millie
Post by Brent P
what is so hard about keeping right except to pass and learning how to
merge? Seriously, sometimes I think if I get stuck behind another retard
that thinks it's ok to merge into 75 mph traffic at 35 mph I am going to
NASCAR bump pass him on to the shoulder!
One more reason we need to lower speed limits to say 55. Then the
merging problem would be greatly reduced.
How is lowering the speed limit to 55 going to encourage merging at
Post by aunt millie
35 MPH? You make as much sense as tits on a boar hog sometimes.
(OK, usually.)

nate
Brent P
2003-08-12 04:36:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nate Nagel
Post by aunt millie
Post by Brent P
what is so hard about keeping right except to pass and learning how to
merge? Seriously, sometimes I think if I get stuck behind another retard
that thinks it's ok to merge into 75 mph traffic at 35 mph I am going to
NASCAR bump pass him on to the shoulder!
One more reason we need to lower speed limits to say 55. Then the
merging problem would be greatly reduced.
How is lowering the speed limit to 55 going to encourage merging at
Post by aunt millie
35 MPH? You make as much sense as tits on a boar hog sometimes.
(OK, usually.)
The speed limit is already 55mph or lower on all chicagoland expressways
I drive on a regular basis. Merging to what the sign says is well asking
to be hurt.
Mot Adv
2003-08-12 12:00:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by aunt millie
Post by Brent P
what is so hard about keeping right except to pass and learning how to
merge? Seriously, sometimes I think if I get stuck behind another retard
that thinks it's ok to merge into 75 mph traffic at 35 mph I am going to
NASCAR bump pass him on to the shoulder!
One more reason we need to lower speed limits to say 55. Then the
merging problem would be greatly reduced.
No Millie J, your on road behaviour will worsen.


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Jim Yanik
2003-08-14 03:27:27 UTC
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Post by aunt millie
One more reason we need to lower speed limits to say 55. Then the
merging problem would be greatly reduced.
BWAHAHAHAHA! Where he's talking about, *it is* (unless it's posted
for only 50 - I've never paid much attention). Went through Sunday
evening at 75 myself - the speed of prevailing traffic. Chicagoans
may be jerks on the road, but at least they're generally not *slow*
jerks.
--
C.R. Krieger
(going with the flow)
Most cities lower highway speed limits to 50-55 mph,it only goes up once
you are outside the city -and- suburbs.Except for certain East Coast states
where the limit never goes higher than 55 mph,who most likely still have
merge-handicapped drivers,trashing Millie's theory.
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove null to contact me
Ricardo
2003-08-16 06:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Chicagoans may be jerks on the road, but at least they're generally
not *slow* jerks.
Gimme slow jerks over 75mph jerks any day of the week. Being a jerk
just doesn't mix safely with driving, especially at 75mph or more.
--
ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada
e-mail: remove spamfreezone to reply
for liability purposes: I *always* obey the law.
'89 grand am le, garaged; '91 mx6 gt
Scott in Aztlan
2003-08-16 14:37:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ricardo
Chicagoans may be jerks on the road, but at least they're generally
not *slow* jerks.
Gimme slow jerks over 75mph jerks any day of the week.
Move to Tucson whenever you're ready. ;)

---
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Dumbth Kills, Too.
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Ricardo
2003-08-21 10:21:03 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:37:17 -0700, Scott in Aztlan
Post by Scott in Aztlan
Post by Ricardo
Gimme slow jerks over 75mph jerks any day of the week.
Move to Tucson whenever you're ready. ;)
Now I think about it, I think I can live with 75mph jerks, so long
as they're not LLBs, and that they're not passing on the right. But
then, otoh, if they're not being LLBs or passing on the right, then
there's a good chance they're actually not jerks. Dangit. :}

I got passed on the right by a reckless driver tonight, I'll post
more about that later in a different relevant thread. For another
reckless speeder in a Honda whom I noticed barrelling down upon me
RAPIDLY in my mirror, with his blue bulbz b-/glaring and all, I
managed to find a small gap to dive into on the right hand lane
between passed vehicles so that I could yield to the impatient SoaB
thinking he was so cool for trying to drive 100+mph in VERY dense
65mph traffic (actually we were really driving 55mph, Officer) and
weave this way and that way.
--
ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada
e-mail: remove spamfreezone to reply
for liability purposes: I *always* obey the law.
'89 grand am le, garaged; '91 mx6 gt
Jim Yanik
2003-08-11 16:08:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brent P
Post by J999w
I don't understand the hostility.
Driving is for getting from point A to point B.
I'll control my car, you control your car.
If you can't control your car, I'm getting as far from you as
possible.
I'll go my speed and you can go as fast or slow as you want. If I
can't get out of your way fast enough, GO AROUND, otherwise, take
your valium and relax. If you're going slower than me, I'll go
around. Simple.
As long as I get to where I'm going, I don't care what you do ... but
if you get a ticket or crash from doing something stupid, too bad,
you'll get no sympathy from me !
Typical american me first, fuck you attitude is what I read from you post.
what is so hard about keeping right except to pass and learning how to
merge? Seriously, sometimes I think if I get stuck behind another
retard that thinks it's ok to merge into 75 mph traffic at 35 mph I am
going to NASCAR bump pass him on to the shoulder!
Tonight I am coming out of the I90/94 express on to the edens, this is
a left lane ramp BTW, that's merging from the ramp into the edens LEFT
LANE. This lane free-flows at just under 80 mph. And as usual I am
stuck behind someone who thinks it's perfectly ok to merge at 30-50
mph below the speed of traffic.
That why there should NOT be ANY left-lane entrances/exits;it defeats the
purpose of "slower traffic keep right". A good example of how this screws
up traffic flow is downtown Orlando.You get people entering on the left in
to the 'fast' lane,slowing them down drastically,then the entrants want to
get over to the right side to get OFF at the next exit,screwing up ALL the
lanes.And the same happens for those entering on the right and wanting to
get off at the next exit on the left side.This happens EVERY day,at peak
traffic times.Traffic slows to a stop,rear-end accidents occur,then the
idiot sightseers on the opposite direction slow to gawk,causing backups on
the other direction.

High levels of accidents at/around these points,too.
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove null to contact me
Mot Adv
2003-08-12 12:03:18 UTC
Permalink
"Jim Yanik" <
Post by Jim Yanik
Post by Brent P
Tonight I am coming out of the I90/94 express on to the edens, this is
a left lane ramp BTW, that's merging from the ramp into the edens LEFT
LANE. This lane free-flows at just under 80 mph. And as usual I am
stuck behind someone who thinks it's perfectly ok to merge at 30-50
mph below the speed of traffic.
That why there should NOT be ANY left-lane entrances/exits;it defeats the
purpose of "slower traffic keep right". A good example of how this screws
up traffic flow is downtown Orlando.You get people entering on the left in
to the 'fast' lane,slowing them down drastically,then the entrants want to
get over to the right side to get OFF at the next exit,screwing up ALL the
lanes.And the same happens for those entering on the right and wanting to
get off at the next exit on the left side.This happens EVERY day,at peak
traffic times.Traffic slows to a stop,rear-end accidents occur,then the
idiot sightseers on the opposite direction slow to gawk,causing backups on
the other direction.
High levels of accidents at/around these points,too.
Jim, this same stuff is reflected here on Sydney's M5 East (AUS- mirror
reversed). The US interchanges MUST be re-worked to the right.
Post by Jim Yanik
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove null to contact me
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Jim Yanik
2003-08-22 02:14:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mot Adv
The US interchanges MUST be re-worked to the right.
That's some demand coming from someone who doesn't even deal with
them. Any reasonably observant driver can deal with these quite
handily. The problem comes from those who aren't. Let 'em splatter
themselves about. I just consider it a mild chlorination of the gene
pool.
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; done that)
Well,it must be that most drivers do not fit that description("Any
reasonably observant driver"),as the left entry/exit points on I-4 in
Orlando DO cause significant problems to traffic flow.

Primarily because of the "slower traffic keep right" or "Left lane for
passing" concepts it violates.

Freeway traffic should always merge in/exit on the right.
Well outside of urban areas this may possibly be relaxed,but it's best to
be consistent.
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove null to contact me
Ricardo
2003-08-22 02:19:47 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:14:26 +0000 (UTC), Jim Yanik
Post by Jim Yanik
Freeway traffic should always merge in/exit on the right.
Well outside of urban areas this may possibly be relaxed,
Not if the freeway's to be used as the high speed road that a
freeway is normally intended to be.
Post by Jim Yanik
but it's best to be consistent.
Especially when dealing with traffic at 80, 90, 100+mph etc. (speed
limit don't mean jack, as we all know).

Last night, a biker merged in front of "Muggins", riding at about
100mph or so. For fun, "Muggins" sped up from his indicated 80ish
mph and paced the biker, who subsequently nailed the brakes 'cos he
(probably) thought "Muggins" was a cop. Indeed, if "Muggins" *was* a
cop, that biker woulda been caught with his pants down! :}
--
ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada
e-mail: remove spamfreezone to reply
for liability purposes: I *always* obey the law.
'89 grand am le, garaged; '91 mx6 gt
C.R. Krieger
2003-08-22 21:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Yanik
Post by Mot Adv
The US interchanges MUST be re-worked to the right.
That's some demand coming from someone who doesn't even deal with
them. Any reasonably observant driver can deal with these quite
handily. The problem comes from those who aren't. Let 'em splatter
themselves about. I just consider it a mild chlorination of the gene
pool.
Well,it must be that most drivers do not fit that description("Any
reasonably observant driver"),as the left entry/exit points on I-4 in
Orlando DO cause significant problems to traffic flow.
Give that man a cigar!
Post by Jim Yanik
Freeway traffic should always merge in/exit on the right.
Well outside of urban areas this may possibly be relaxed,but it's best to
be consistent.
Unfortunately, the reasons it exists at all are reasons that primarily
exist only in urban areas. My take on it is, if you're not *smart
enough* to drive in the city, *don't* drive in the city! We can't
make driving 'dumb enough' for *everybody* without effectively
sacrificing the marginally efficient traffic flow we have now, and we
ought to face that fact!
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; drove that)
Jim Yanik
2003-08-23 01:35:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by C.R. Krieger
Post by Jim Yanik
Post by Mot Adv
The US interchanges MUST be re-worked to the right.
That's some demand coming from someone who doesn't even deal with
them. Any reasonably observant driver can deal with these quite
handily. The problem comes from those who aren't. Let 'em
splatter themselves about. I just consider it a mild chlorination
of the gene pool.
Well,it must be that most drivers do not fit that description("Any
reasonably observant driver"),as the left entry/exit points on I-4 in
Orlando DO cause significant problems to traffic flow.
Give that man a cigar!
Post by Jim Yanik
Freeway traffic should always merge in/exit on the right.
Well outside of urban areas this may possibly be relaxed,but it's
best to be consistent.
Unfortunately, the reasons it exists at all are reasons that primarily
exist only in urban areas. My take on it is, if you're not *smart
enough* to drive in the city, *don't* drive in the city! We can't
make driving 'dumb enough' for *everybody* without effectively
sacrificing the marginally efficient traffic flow we have now, and we
ought to face that fact!
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; drove that)
It is NOT making driving 'dumb' enough for everyone,it's making common
sense engineering.Trying to have vehicles merge into left-lane traffic
where "slower traffic keep RIGHT" is supposed to apply does NOT make sense.
Not to mention that many of those merging vehicles try to get over to the
right-most lane to get OFF at the next exit,or try to get over to the far
left to exit on the left side,causing extreme traffic backups,and several
accidents DAILY.

don't try to minimalize what is a serious problem in Orlando.
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove null to contact me
Jim Yanik
2003-08-12 14:15:16 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:08:10 +0000 (UTC), Jim Yanik
Post by Jim Yanik
That why there should NOT be ANY left-lane entrances/exits;it
defeats the purpose of "slower traffic keep right".
Left exits are fine when they are for the exclusive use of vehicles
in the carpool lane. This prevents the chaos caused by people trying
to cross 6
lanes
of traffic to make their exit.
Left lane exist/entries are just plain dumb. The chaos you fear would
not exist, (and will not exist), if your laws permitted and the roads
had 'keep right unless passing' signs 10 - 20 years ago. The signs
should have been posted before your limits were raised.
Many places DO have the signs posted,us unruly Americans have a habit of
not always obeying.And drivers should not have to have a sign posted to
tell them that some driving manners are not acceptable.Problem is that the
law cannot be effectively enforced,it really was dependent on people's
desire to "do the right thing" which is going away(HAS gone away).
It takes time for lane discipline to improve, but it will, any
jurisdiction not having a 'keep right unless overtaking' rule is
negligent.
We won't mention the stupidity of keeping to the middle lane/s while
the right lane is clear. Very untidy. The appropriate text in driver
manauls will help.
Some lazy people don't want to deal with merging traffic.
As for left-side entrances, the only place I've ever seen them is in
space-challenged places like Chicago; in some cases, they either had
to
build a
left-side onramp, or no onramp at all.
sometimes they are used just to cut costs,too.
On intercity Interstates NO left entries or exits please.
*Between* cities is usually not a problem,there's enough room to do it
right,proper lanes and spacing between exit/entrances.
The problem is INTRA-city Interstates.
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove null to contact me
Brent P
2003-08-12 15:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Yanik
Many places DO have the signs posted,us unruly Americans have a habit of
not always obeying.And drivers should not have to have a sign posted to
tell them that some driving manners are not acceptable.Problem is that the
law cannot be effectively enforced,it really was dependent on people's
desire to "do the right thing" which is going away(HAS gone away).
Worse yet is the 'just-let-them-do-it' concept that in short encourages
people to allow the aggressive drivers do anything they want and in
fact get out of their way. This creates a expectation for these people
who are doing unacceptable things that they should be allowed to do it,
that everyone else should just get out of the way.

Take one of these people and mix them with someone who doesn't back down
and it's instant road-rage.
Scott in Aztlan
2003-08-14 03:05:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brent P
Worse yet is the 'just-let-them-do-it' concept that in short
encourages people to allow the aggressive drivers do anything they
want and in fact get out of their way. This creates a expectation for
these people who are doing unacceptable things that they should be
allowed to do it, that everyone else should just get out of the way.
Take one of these people and mix them with someone who doesn't back
down and it's instant road-rage.
I call then "enablers".
Like the morons who let the drivers who ignore 'lane ends in 1000 ft.'
signs and run to the end of the merge lane expecting to be let in,and
causing slowdowns.
There was a nice long thread about enablers a few months back. Hard to believe,
but there were actually one or two people in this group who think this sort of
behavior is "courtesy."

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Paul Rosete
2003-08-12 18:38:53 UTC
Permalink
The chaos you fear would not
exist, (and will not exist), if your laws permitted and the roads had
'keep
right unless passing' signs 10 - 20 years ago. The signs should have been
posted before your limits were raised.
Actually, I've been driving for 42 years in the US, most of that time in
Florida, and most states' regulations have always included the "keep right
except to pass." At one time, decades ago, drivers actually adhered to it.
It just seems that drivers today, regardless of their age and driving time,
are more ready to ignore this.

What I have noticed, though, is that in many cases I seem to serve as an
example to left-laners when I pass them on the right. It is often that I see
them veering off into the right lane after I pass them. Not all the time,
but it seems that more and more many drivers will model the KRETP behavior.
It takes time for lane discipline to improve, but it will, any
jurisdiction
not having a 'keep right unless overtaking' rule is negligent.
We won't mention the stupidity of keeping to the middle lane/s while the
right lane is clear. Very untidy. The appropriate text in driver manauls
will help.
As for left-side entrances, the only place I've ever seen them is in
space-challenged places like Chicago; in some cases, they either had to
build a
left-side onramp, or no onramp at all.
On intercity Interstates NO left entries or exits please.
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Scott in Aztlan
2003-08-14 03:08:25 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:38:53 GMT, "Paul Rosete"
Post by Paul Rosete
The chaos you fear would not
exist, (and will not exist), if your laws permitted and the roads had
'keep
right unless passing' signs 10 - 20 years ago. The signs should have been
posted before your limits were raised.
Actually, I've been driving for 42 years in the US, most of that time in
Florida, and most states' regulations have always included the "keep right
except to pass." At one time, decades ago, drivers actually adhered to it.
It just seems that drivers today, regardless of their age and driving time,
are more ready to ignore this.
Of course. People will ignore any law that is not enforced. Like, for example,
the law in Indiana which says that PI is equal to exactly 3.0. Or the laws that
prohibit unmarried couples from coupling.

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C.R. Krieger
2003-08-13 18:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Yanik
Post by Brent P
Tonight I am coming out of the I90/94 express on to the edens, this is
a left lane ramp BTW, that's merging from the ramp into the edens LEFT
LANE. This lane free-flows at just under 80 mph. And as usual I am
stuck behind someone who thinks it's perfectly ok to merge at 30-50
mph below the speed of traffic.
That why there should NOT be ANY left-lane entrances/exits;it defeats the
purpose of "slower traffic keep right".
Jim, this particular ramp is from an *express* lane (merged from two
such, a thousand feet or so before it, after several miles of
'express' traffic) that is supposed to be moving at the *same speed*
as the lane it joins, the leftmost of three 'local' lanes. The
problem is the morons who think it's safe and sane to be out there
*anywhere* going 35-50 in traffic *normally* flowing at 70-75. I can
drive it in my sleep - but not that slow.
--
C.R. Krieger
(not disagreeing in principle)
Jim Yanik
2003-08-14 03:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by C.R. Krieger
Post by Jim Yanik
Post by Brent P
Tonight I am coming out of the I90/94 express on to the edens, this
is a left lane ramp BTW, that's merging from the ramp into the
edens LEFT LANE. This lane free-flows at just under 80 mph. And as
usual I am stuck behind someone who thinks it's perfectly ok to
merge at 30-50 mph below the speed of traffic.
That why there should NOT be ANY left-lane entrances/exits;it defeats
the purpose of "slower traffic keep right".
Jim, this particular ramp is from an *express* lane (merged from two
such, a thousand feet or so before it, after several miles of
'express' traffic) that is supposed to be moving at the *same speed*
as the lane it joins, the leftmost of three 'local' lanes. The
problem is the morons who think it's safe and sane to be out there
*anywhere* going 35-50 in traffic *normally* flowing at 70-75. I can
drive it in my sleep - but not that slow.
--
C.R. Krieger
(not disagreeing in principle)
I've noticed there are some drivers who hit the brakes/slow when they
change lanes.Some who tap the brakes every 10-20 seconds regardless whether
it's necessary or not.

There still should not be lanes merging into/exiting from traffic from the
LEFT.Bad engineering.
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove null to contact me
Cory Dunkle
2003-08-14 16:46:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Yanik
Post by C.R. Krieger
Post by Jim Yanik
Post by Brent P
Tonight I am coming out of the I90/94 express on to the edens, this
is a left lane ramp BTW, that's merging from the ramp into the
edens LEFT LANE. This lane free-flows at just under 80 mph. And as
usual I am stuck behind someone who thinks it's perfectly ok to
merge at 30-50 mph below the speed of traffic.
That why there should NOT be ANY left-lane entrances/exits;it defeats
the purpose of "slower traffic keep right".
Jim, this particular ramp is from an *express* lane (merged from two
such, a thousand feet or so before it, after several miles of
'express' traffic) that is supposed to be moving at the *same speed*
as the lane it joins, the leftmost of three 'local' lanes. The
problem is the morons who think it's safe and sane to be out there
*anywhere* going 35-50 in traffic *normally* flowing at 70-75. I can
drive it in my sleep - but not that slow.
--
C.R. Krieger
(not disagreeing in principle)
I've noticed there are some drivers who hit the brakes/slow when they
change lanes.Some who tap the brakes every 10-20 seconds regardless whether
it's necessary or not.
My dad does that, or used to do that before last weekend. I won't even
mention cruising in the wrong lane or any other reckless and discourteous
behavior he exhibited. I followed him back from Maine. Every time he changed
lanes to pass he would slow down, and 15-30 seconds later pass, then often
once he passed he would slow back down. I'd try to encourage him along by
not slowing down when we changed lanes, or flashing my turn signal. Finally
I just flipped on him and told him if we were going to stick together he was
going to have to drive by my rules or I'd leave him in my dust. So he
finally started driving in the proper lane, passing properly, etc... Glad I
was able to teach someone how to drive.

Cory
Scott in Aztlan
2003-08-14 03:03:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Yanik
That why there should NOT be ANY left-lane entrances/exits;it defeats the
purpose of "slower traffic keep right".
Left exits are fine when they are for the exclusive use of vehicles in the
carpool lane. This prevents the chaos caused by people trying to cross 6
lanes
of traffic to make their exit.
Left lane exist/entries are just plain dumb.
I see. So you would rather see someone attempt to make a right-side exit across
6 lanes of SoCal rush hour freeway traffic than have them simply exit from the
car pool lane on the left?

Thank Gawd you aren't in charge of Caltrans... :rolleyes:

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Marc
2003-08-15 15:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott in Aztlan
Post by Jim Yanik
That why there should NOT be ANY left-lane entrances/exits;it defeats the
purpose of "slower traffic keep right".
Left exits are fine when they are for the exclusive use of vehicles in the
carpool lane. This prevents the chaos caused by people trying to cross 6
lanes
of traffic to make their exit.
Left lane exist/entries are just plain dumb.
I see. So you would rather see someone attempt to make a right-side exit across
6 lanes of SoCal rush hour freeway traffic than have them simply exit from the
car pool lane on the left?
No. Carpool lanes are dumber.
You wouldn't have trouble exiting from the carpool lanes if I was in charge
of Caltrans.

Marc
For email, remove the first "y" of "whineryy"
The Real Bev
2003-08-15 00:33:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Yanik
That why there should NOT be ANY left-lane entrances/exits;it defeats the
purpose of "slower traffic keep right".
Left exits are fine when they are for the exclusive use of vehicles in the
carpool lane. This prevents the chaos caused by people trying to cross 6 lanes
of traffic to make their exit.
As for left-side entrances, the only place I've ever seen them is in
space-challenged places like Chicago; in some cases, they either had to build a
left-side onramp, or no onramp at all.
I think there's one where southbound I-5 transfers to I-134 east.
Mapquest keeps killing Mozilla when I try to look and the Thomas Guide
isn't clear enough to tell.
--
Cheers,
Bev
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
SAVE GAS, FART IN A JAR
Jim Yanik
2003-08-15 01:55:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Real Bev
Mapquest keeps killing Mozilla when I try to look and the Thomas Guide
isn't clear enough to tell.
I've noticed that some websites 'kill' Netscape 4.08,they seem to clog it
up so that only a tiny bit of data will load,then it stops and waits
forever.And the only way to 'unkill' Netscape is to reboot the PC.

Or the page causes a fault window to appear,and Netscape closes out when
you exit the fault window.

IIRC,Netscape and Mozilla are closely related.
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove null to contact me
Matthew Russotto
2003-08-15 13:47:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Yanik
Post by The Real Bev
Mapquest keeps killing Mozilla when I try to look and the Thomas Guide
isn't clear enough to tell.
I've noticed that some websites 'kill' Netscape 4.08,they seem to clog it
up so that only a tiny bit of data will load,then it stops and waits
forever.And the only way to 'unkill' Netscape is to reboot the PC.
Or kill netscape.exe in the task manager.
Post by Jim Yanik
IIRC,Netscape and Mozilla are closely related.
Mozilla is not at all related to Netscape 4.08
--
Matthew T. Russotto ***@speakeasy.net
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue." But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of
a modicum of security is a very expensive vice.
Jim Yanik
2003-08-15 15:00:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Russotto
Post by Jim Yanik
Post by The Real Bev
Mapquest keeps killing Mozilla when I try to look and the Thomas
Guide isn't clear enough to tell.
I've noticed that some websites 'kill' Netscape 4.08,they seem to clog
it up so that only a tiny bit of data will load,then it stops and
waits forever.And the only way to 'unkill' Netscape is to reboot the
PC.
Or kill netscape.exe in the task manager.
Post by Jim Yanik
IIRC,Netscape and Mozilla are closely related.
Mozilla is not at all related to Netscape 4.08
My problem seems to stem from Java or Javascript.I turned them off and
things work much better.

Netscape was developed originally from Mozilla,IIRC.
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove null to contact me
Scott in Aztlan
2003-08-15 04:09:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Real Bev
I think there's one where southbound I-5 transfers to I-134 east.
Mapquest keeps killing Mozilla when I try to look and the Thomas Guide
isn't clear enough to tell.
I tried looking in Microsloth Streets & Trips, but it doesn't have I-134 in its
database.

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Scott in Aztlan
2003-08-12 01:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brent P
what is so hard about keeping right except to pass and learning how to
merge? Seriously, sometimes I think if I get stuck behind another retard
that thinks it's ok to merge into 75 mph traffic at 35 mph I am going to
NASCAR bump pass him on to the shoulder!
How ironic. Brent thinks it's OK to "NASCAR-bump" another motorist, but if I
were to "NASCAR-bump" him on his bicycle for the exact same reason, he'd slap my
fender and scream bloody murder (at least until his skull splits open against
the curb).

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Garth Almgren
2003-08-11 16:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by J999w
I'll go my speed and you can go as fast or slow as you want.
Exactly, as long as you (and everyone else) practice KRETP. :)
So much for obeying the law.
What, you've never worried about obeying the law before, Judy... Why
start now?

You're guilty (by your own admission) of:

1) Speeding in a school zone
2) Failing to keep right except to pass
3) Running stop signs and red lights when they inconvenience you
4) Reckless endangerment (almost sideswiping a motorcyclist because you
weren't paying attention)

And those are only the ones you've publicly admitted to. I'm sure the
list goes on. How many DUI convictions have you racked up? Any
manslaughter charges yet?
--
~/Garth
Brent P
2003-08-11 05:15:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Forest
Ed, Ed, Ed, don't do it; come back to our team, we need you. Come on, fight
the good fight, stick with us...
Lately I am about to say f' it and drive like all these morons out there
too.... It's just getting too frustrating.
Ricardo
2003-08-11 07:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brent P
Post by Forest
Ed, Ed, Ed, don't do it; come back to our team, we need you. Come on, fight
the good fight, stick with us...
Lately I am about to say f' it and drive like all these morons out there
too.... It's just getting too frustrating.
But does a good driver like yourself really want to sink to *their*
level?
--
ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada
e-mail: remove spamfreezone to reply
for liability purposes: I *always* obey the law.
'89 grand am le, garaged; '91 mx6 gt
Scott in Aztlan
2003-08-11 15:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ricardo
Post by Brent P
Lately I am about to say f' it and drive like all these morons out there
too.... It's just getting too frustrating.
But does a good driver like yourself really want to sink to *their*
level?
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!

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Ricardo
2003-08-11 19:32:20 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:16:55 -0700, Scott in Aztlan
Post by Scott in Aztlan
Post by Ricardo
But does a good driver like yourself really want to sink to *their*
level?
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!
Owich!
--
ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada
e-mail: remove spamfreezone to reply
for liability purposes: I *always* obey the law.
'89 grand am le, garaged; '91 mx6 gt
Scott in Aztlan
2003-08-11 15:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brent P
Lately I am about to say f' it and drive like all these morons out there
too.... It's just getting too frustrating.
Aren't you afraid you'll get your fender slapped?

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Scott in Aztlan
2003-08-14 03:22:28 UTC
Permalink
I recently made a trip from NJ to ME and back. One thing I noticed is that
people using acceleration lanes refuse to accelerate. If there is a gap in
front of me and behind me the people merging will most often end up right
next to me and then struggle to get in.
Had this happen to me just the other day.

For thosewho didn't already know, Caltrans has just finished a major project on
the I-5 near Disneyland. Aside from the usual widening, they reworked the Euclid
Street onramp; it's now a long flyover ramp with 2 lanes at the street entrance
which merge down to a single lane when it joins the freeway. I was in the left
of the two lanes. Ahead of me was a baby SUV; next to it in the right lane was a
90's model Ford Thunderbird.

When the light turned green, the SUV ahead of me started off slow, like she had
a raw egg between her foot and the gas pedal. Despite the completely clear lane
ahead of him, ThunderChicken matches speed with the SUV, keeping station
directly in her blind spot. As we proceeded down the ramp, gradually
accelerating to 40MPH (and approaching I-5, where the 85th percentile speeds are
close to 90MPH), ThunderChicken remains at his post; he sees his lane squeezing
off up ahead, but instead of giving it a little gas and merging into the wide
open space in front of Baby SUV, it is obvious that he intends to merge in
BEHIND Baby SUV (and in front of me).

Needless to say, that didn't happen. I stuck to Baby SUV's tail like glue,
leaving no room at all for ThunderChicken to even attempt to merge in. As we
puttered along (up to 45MPH now) and his lane kept getting narrower and
narrower, TC *still* remained at station, apparently thinking I would relent and
allow him to merge in. Up until the very last moment, all it would have taken
was a small movement of the accelerator for him to pass Baby SUV and pull into
the clear - but NOOOOOO, TC apparently had a right to merge in wherever he damn
well pleased, and by golly-gosh he was going to exercise that right!

Ultimately, ThunderChicken ran out of road, slowed down, and pulled in behind
me. At that precise moment, I pulled out from behind Baby SUV and merged
smoothly into the 85 - 90MPH traffic, leaving both of the idiots mired in a
traffic snarl of their own creation as they attempted to merge in at roughly
half the speed of the existing traffic.

Label me as a staunch NON-enabler. ;)

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The Real Bev
2003-08-15 00:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott in Aztlan
Ultimately, ThunderChicken ran out of road, slowed down, and pulled in behind
me. At that precise moment, I pulled out from behind Baby SUV and merged
smoothly into the 85 - 90MPH traffic, leaving both of the idiots mired in a
traffic snarl of their own creation as they attempted to merge in at roughly
half the speed of the existing traffic.
Oooh, that was mean! And you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if he
had pulled in ahead of you he would have immediately moved one lane to the
left, possibly two, thereby annoying at least one other driver with the
same maneuver.

I did that once, and the guy had a total tantrum. Honked, gestured,
pulled around in front of me and slowed to 40 or so, and sped up when I
tried to pass him on the left. I could see his girlfriend yelling at him,
and eventually he just gassed it and left. Some people don't deserve to
grow up.
--
Cheers,
Bev
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
SAVE GAS, FART IN A JAR
Ricardo
2003-08-16 06:06:53 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:11:45 -0700, Scott in Aztlan
Post by The Real Bev
Post by Scott in Aztlan
Ultimately, ThunderChicken ran out of road, slowed down, and pulled in behind
me. At that precise moment, I pulled out from behind Baby SUV and merged
smoothly into the 85 - 90MPH traffic, leaving both of the idiots mired in a
traffic snarl of their own creation as they attempted to merge in at roughly
half the speed of the existing traffic.
Oooh, that was mean!
Not to mention discourteous. ;)
Shucks, they started it!
--
ricardo, ex-euroslav vancouver bc canada
e-mail: remove spamfreezone to reply
for liability purposes: I *always* obey the law.
'89 grand am le, garaged; '91 mx6 gt
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