Jeep Liberty : Reliability, Safety, IFS ??

[Paul Thomas]

I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.

Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
safety features?


Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
has this problem )


I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
reliability?

Thank you all for your help,

Paul Thomas

[Nathan Collier]

Post by Paul Thomas
If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4

i find it interesting that you would rate ford so low when i just posted
this tonight. http://7slotgrille.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=750

[Jerry McGeorge]

Post by Paul Thomas
Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are

vulnerable to tip over. <

Any vehicle with a high center of gravity is prone to "tip over" to one
degree or another. However, much of this rollover carping is from greens who
hope people won't buy SUVs and thus won't go off road. They want to close
all off road trails so they can have all public land to themselves.

Post by Paul Thomas
How is jeep's record on this? <

Jeeps are actually better than most in this regard, but again, it depends on
the driver.

Post by Paul Thomas
Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? <

Consumer Reports rates it average, which is rather difficult to define but
probably good.

Post by Paul Thomas
I am going to use it only to commute to and from work and may be some

camping. Strictly no rock climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. <

Good thing, because it's not a very capable rig off-road. Strictly for
forest trails, etc. Its IFS design inhibits wheel travel and thus hobbles
it. Indeed, among veteran Jeepers it's not even considered a "Jeep".

Post by Paul Thomas
If you give Honda a reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability

rating of 4 how would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). <

Tough on Ford, wouldn't you say? (They actually do much better than you
think.)

This is an intangible, it's going to depend upon how you drive & maintain
it, but I would not put it in the Honda category, in fact I wouldn't put the
newer Hondas in the Honda category!

Post by Paul Thomas
Does the parts start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear

Nissan Xterra has this problem )>

Never heard this about the Xterra, quite the contrary. Again, it's too new
to know how it will hold up long term.

Post by Paul Thomas
I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front suspension

and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and reliability? <

IFS suspensions are designed to improve on-highway ride, solid axles are
better off road. Solid rear axles can theoretically handle greater loads and
allow more wheel travel in rough terrain.

On a "Jeep" and independent suspension is a travesty.

Many of us have no idea what DC was thinking with the Liberty, other than to
have a "cute ute" to sell. It's got less interior room than the old
Cherokee, is less competent off road and even looks kind of stupid. If they
roll out more models similar to the Liberty Jeep stands to fall flat on its
face. It's really intended to be a "chick-mobile", which is not where
anything called a "Jeep" belongs.

[C. E. White]

Post by Jerry McGeorge
IFS suspensions are designed to improve on-highway ride, solid axles are
better off road. Solid rear axles can theoretically handle greater loads and
allow more wheel travel in rough terrain.

I can accept the "greater loads" part of your comments, but I don't agree with
(or at least understand) the part about "greater travel." I know this is often
claimed, but the only web site that made the case was so full of holes as to be
useless. Maybe you can explain it to me. I believe that a properly designed IRS
can have more ground clearance that a solid axle design. Unfortunately
retrofitting such a system is difficult and expensive. In the context of the
original question, why do you think the Liberties IFS is worse than the
Cherokee's beam axle as long as both remain unmodified?

Post by Jerry McGeorge
On a "Jeep" and independent suspension is a travesty.
Many of us have no idea what DC was thinking with the Liberty, other than to
have a "cute ute" to sell. It's got less interior room than the old
Cherokee, is less competent off road and even looks kind of stupid. If they
roll out more models similar to the Liberty Jeep stands to fall flat on its
face. It's really intended to be a "chick-mobile", which is not where
anything called a "Jeep" belongs.

Ever see a Jeepster?

Ed

[Jerry McGeorge]

Post by C. E. White
I can accept the "greater loads" part of your comments, but I don't agree

with (or at least understand) the part about "greater travel." I know this
is often claimed, but the only web site that made the case was so full of
holes as to be useless. Maybe you can explain it to me. I believe that a
properly designed IRS can have more ground clearance that a solid axle
design. Unfortunately retrofitting such a system is difficult and expensive.
In the context of the original question, why do you think the Liberties IFS
is worse than the Cherokee's beam axle as long as both remain unmodified?

It's a simple matter of leverage: The solid axle pivots on the opposite side
of the vehicle, allowing a greater range of motion. An independent system
typically has it's fulcrum point just a few inches from the hub, thus range
of travel is inhibited. This is why the independently sprung Hummer HI has
its suspension a-arms mounted nearly at the centerline of the frame.

Yes, you can add adapters to an independent front suspension to increase
ground clearance (that is, add lift), however wheel travel is the most
important factor of the two and these adapters generally do not increase
range of travel. They just permit adding larger tires.

The Cherokee XJ was a time-tested, durable design, whereas the Liberty seems
to be a concession to complaints of "harsh highway ride". I for one always
though the old Cherokee rode well on the highway and handles extremely well.
The Liberty simply was intended to leverage the Jeep name, not extend its
capabilities.

[Liberator02]

Excuse me? A chick Jeep? Lol. Look at the Wrangler next to mine on the first pic. That's a chick Jeep
https://www.motorsforum.com/img/26a
https://www.motorsforum.com/img/26c
https://www.motorsforum.com/img/26e

[gavilan1]

You chose to post this to an 18 year old thread? Desperate to share pics of your Liberty, I guess. I’ve seen very capable and respectable old modified Suzuki Samurais on the trail, and they get lots of cred, fellowship, and waves from Jeepers. I’ve also seen old Ford Pintos on 40”s with a who-knows-how-many-inch lift elevating the floorboards to about 6’ above deck. It’s your ride. Do with it as you will. Just don’t put Rubicon stickers or badges on it. That might look foolish.

[Mike Hall]

Paul

Try this site for vehicle bodywork integrity..
http://www.crashtest.com/jeep/ie.htm

Any vehicle if driven either on or past its limits will be unsafe.. one
would assume that the differences in general handling between a Ferrari
Modena 360 and an SUV would be fairly obvious, yet some still choose to
drive their SUV in a manner more befitting the Ferrari..

Vehicle reliability is down to quality of parts and regular maintenance..
glancing through user reviews will often leave you wondering whether or not
to make a particular purchase.. some seem to have bad luck by the truckload,
and others do not.. there is an element of luck involved, quality control
not always being the highest priority at all times during initial
construction..

The Jeep Liberty may not be all that a 'real' Jeep should be, but if you
like the look of it, and feel that it would service you well, then go ahead
and purchase one.. and remember that there is nothing in the 'rule book'
that enforces all Jeep drivers to be off-roaders.. rock crawling and
following Hannibal's original route across the Alps is not for everybody..

--
History is only the past if we choose to do nothing about it..

Post by Paul Thomas
I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
safety features?
Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
has this problem )
I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
reliability?
Thank you all for your help,
Paul Thomas

[Dan J.S.]

Post by Paul Thomas
I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
safety features?
Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
has this problem )
I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
reliability?
Thank you all for your help,
Paul Thomas

I would stay away from any Chrysler products. Liberty is ok, but I have a
few associates that have more than average share of problems with them.
Consider a Toyota 4runner. Little more roomy, very comfortable, and very
reliable.

[C. E. White]

Post by Dan J.S.

Post by Paul Thomas
I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
safety features?
Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
has this problem )
I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
reliability?
Thank you all for your help,
Paul Thomas

I would stay away from any Chrysler products. Liberty is ok, but I have a
few associates that have more than average share of problems with them.
Consider a Toyota 4runner. Little more roomy, very comfortable, and very
reliable.

And very expensive. Hopefully the revised 4Runner is safer than the old one
which had one of the highest injury loss rating of any SUV sold in the US.

I don't thik a person considering a Liberty is really in the market for a
4Runner.

Ed

[rnf2]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Dan J.S.

Post by Paul Thomas
I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
safety features?
Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
has this problem )
I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
reliability?
Thank you all for your help,
Paul Thomas

I would stay away from any Chrysler products. Liberty is ok, but I have a
few associates that have more than average share of problems with them.
Consider a Toyota 4runner. Little more roomy, very comfortable, and very
reliable.

And very expensive. Hopefully the revised 4Runner is safer than the old one
which had one of the highest injury loss rating of any SUV sold in the US.
I don't thik a person considering a Liberty is really in the market for a
4Runner.
Ed

Isuzu Trooper.
the new models are goign cheap because they're the last of the model, theres
a new US built design replacing the Jap built ones soon. So don't expect a
good resale price, but if you buy one and hang on to it, they're cheap now.

rhys

[Ted]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Dan J.S.

Post by Paul Thomas
I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
safety features?
Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
has this problem )
I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
reliability?
Thank you all for your help,
Paul Thomas

I would stay away from any Chrysler products. Liberty is ok, but I have a
few associates that have more than average share of problems with them.
Consider a Toyota 4runner. Little more roomy, very comfortable, and very
reliable.

And very expensive. Hopefully the revised 4Runner is safer than the old one
which had one of the highest injury loss rating of any SUV sold in the US.
I don't thik a person considering a Liberty is really in the market for a
4Runner.
Ed

Thats because they sold the most...duh

[C. E. White]

Post by Ted

Post by C. E. White
And very expensive. Hopefully the revised 4Runner is safer than the old

one

Post by C. E. White
which had one of the highest injury loss rating of any SUV sold in the US.
I don't thik a person considering a Liberty is really in the market for a
4Runner.
Ed

Thats because they sold the most...duh

It doesn't work that way. If it did, the Explorer would have the worst rating.
It doesn't. The injury loss rating is based on the dollar loss per million
registered vehicles attributable to injury and then is normalized so that the
average vehicle has an injury loss rating of 100. The 200-2002 4WD 4Runner has
an injury loss rating of 91 (which is better than the average for all vehicles),
but a 4 Door 4WD Explorer's rating is only 71 (lower is better). The average for
all mid-sized 4WD SUVs is 76.

Even worse is the roll over performance of the 4Runner. A 4DR, 4WD Explorer has
a driver death rating due to rollovers of 26. The 4Runner has a rating of 86.
(the rate is deaths in single-vehicle crashes involving rollover per million
registered vehicle years). I can't see how the press trashed Explorers for
rollovers and ignored the far more dangerous 4Runner. I hope the new 4Runner is
better, but from what I can read, it is little more that a new body sitting on
the same tired old chassis. And in fact it may be worse since they increased the
weight and added a heavier , more powerful engine as an option. It seems to me
that the Japanese SUVs are getting a free ride when it comes to Safety. In every
category of SUV they rank near the bottom of injury rates.

Oh what a feeling.

Ed

[Dan J.S.]

Post by C. E. White
It doesn't work that way. If it did, the Explorer would have the worst rating.
It doesn't. The injury loss rating is based on the dollar loss per million
registered vehicles attributable to injury and then is normalized so that the
average vehicle has an injury loss rating of 100. The 200-2002 4WD 4Runner has
an injury loss rating of 91 (which is better than the average for all vehicles),
but a 4 Door 4WD Explorer's rating is only 71 (lower is better). The average for
all mid-sized 4WD SUVs is 76.
Even worse is the roll over performance of the 4Runner. A 4DR, 4WD Explorer has
a driver death rating due to rollovers of 26. The 4Runner has a rating of 86.
(the rate is deaths in single-vehicle crashes involving rollover per million
registered vehicle years). I can't see how the press trashed Explorers for
rollovers and ignored the far more dangerous 4Runner. I hope the new 4Runner is
better, but from what I can read, it is little more that a new body sitting on
the same tired old chassis. And in fact it may be worse since they increased the
weight and added a heavier , more powerful engine as an option. It seems to me
that the Japanese SUVs are getting a free ride when it comes to Safety. In every
category of SUV they rank near the bottom of injury rates.
Oh what a feeling.
Ed

With the XReas on the new 4 runner, it's almost impossible to make it roll
over. Also, they made other safety adjustments.

Let's look at reliability. Look at jdpower.com and compare long term
reliability tests of 4 runner vs. explorer. vs jeep grand cherokee. Toyota
always comes up on top. Also, I have friends that racked over half a million
miles on their 4 runners. This is something American made SUVs just do not
do. I think the original poster would be better of spending a little more to
get better quality.

Don't get me wrong, Ford's F150 is a fairly reliable truck, and Ford is
trying hard to gain. However, current Jeeps and Chrysler products are
spinning their wheels.

[C. E. White]

Post by Dan J.S.
Let's look at reliability. Look at jdpower.com and compare long term
reliability tests of 4 runner vs. explorer. vs jeep grand cherokee. Toyota
always comes up on top. Also, I have friends that racked over half a million
miles on their 4 runners. This is something American made SUVs just do not
do. I think the original poster would be better of spending a little more to
get better quality.

I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles,
but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.

Post by Dan J.S.
Don't get me wrong, Ford's F150 is a fairly reliable truck, and Ford is
trying hard to gain. However, current Jeeps and Chrysler products are
spinning their wheels.

Ed

[DougW]

Post by C. E. White
I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles,
but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.

A coworkers Honda Civic just passed the 400,000 mile mark, but that
car does look like a rolling rustbucket. He's waiting for one of
those push-pull-drag tradein days.

My old C-10 chevy had 200,000 miles before I sold it in 93 and even then
it only had minor rust in the cab corners. The Jeep ZJ has 109,000 on it.

High milage isn't impossible if the owner takes proper care of the
vehicle. Regular maintenance, keeping the dirt from blocking drains,
staying away from crazy drivers, and living outside the rust-belt helps.

[Nathan Collier]

Post by C. E. White
I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles.

i had an 86 4 runner that i took past 400,000 miles (in commercial usage,
many times loaded way beyond capacity) before selling it on the original
internals. i went through many alternators, water pumps, and starters but
thats it. i removed the valve cover to adjust the valves but beyond that,
no wrenches ever touched the engine. the 22r/re is an amazing engine.

[rnf2]

Post by C. E. White
I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles,
but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.

Outside of Ford and Jeep, there are very few USA made 4WDs here in NZ, Most
vehicles are japanese. I've owned a Mitsi with over 250,000Km on it, and it
was in fine condition and running well. That eventually got written off in a
crash. There are many pre '85 Jap cars with over 400,000Km no the roads
here. and I know of one Nissan with over 1 Million Km.

We don't have salted roads here in winter, so they only have to deal with
sea winds.

If you want real reliability however, You can't beat the Holdens.

rhys

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <***@mindspring.com>, ***@mindspring.com
says...

Post by C. E. White

Post by Dan J.S.
Let's look at reliability. Look at jdpower.com and compare long term
reliability tests of 4 runner vs. explorer. vs jeep grand cherokee. Toyota
always comes up on top. Also, I have friends that racked over half a million
miles on their 4 runners. This is something American made SUVs just do not
do. I think the original poster would be better of spending a little more to
get better quality.

I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles,
but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.

I know someone with an 88 that has 430,000 km on it, it works great but
there is virtually none of the original body left on it. Mine only has
140,000 km on it, it's a 93 and to people who don't know how to
differentiate model years it looks like it's only 3 or 4 years old. Of
course I've had it painted a few times and the head gasket went on it
once but other than those few major expensive its been basically put gas
in it and drive. I hope to god I don't have it for 400,000 km though,
I'm pretty bored with it now actually.

[DTJ]

some other idiot wrote...

Post by Chris Phillipo

Post by C. E. White
I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.

Your inability to take care of a vehicle does not an impartial study
make.


On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:07:44 -0400, Chris Phillipo

Post by Chris Phillipo
I know someone with an 88 that has 430,000 km on it, it works great but
there is virtually none of the original body left on it. Mine only has
140,000 km on it, it's a 93 and to people who don't know how to
differentiate model years it looks like it's only 3 or 4 years old. Of
course I've had it painted a few times and the head gasket went on it
once but other than those few major expensive its been basically put gas
in it and drive. I hope to god I don't have it for 400,000 km though,
I'm pretty bored with it now actually.

Honda and Toyota are two of the extremely few companies that can
actually build an engine. Ford, Chrysler, GM, Mercedes, and a bunch
of others just suck. Every Honda I have owned has gone over 100,000
miles without burning a drop of oil. I have never had an American car
come even close.

I laugh at Cadillac saying 100,000 without a tune up. Sure, but just
because the plugs are still firing doesn't make up for the 3 quarts of
oil per mile it burns...

[C. E. White]

Post by DTJ
some other idiot wrote...

Post by C. E. White
I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.

Your inability to take care of a vehicle does not an impartial study
make.

Exactly what do you do to keep relays from failing? How do you keep the stupid
alternator from cooking the internal regulator every summer? What maintenance
do you suggest to keep the A/C from failing? Just how often do you have to
change the transmission fluid in a Toyota transmission to keep it from going
belly up (monthly?)? What treatment would have stopped all the black trim from
fading to white? What should Ii have done to keep the internal plastic from
turning white and cracking in less than 5 years? Is repainting the car routine
maintenance for a Toyota? Did I forget to change the oil in the starter or is
there some sort of magic to keep them going for more than three years? I
don't doubt that someone could drive a 4Runner 500,000 miles, I just doubted
that one had been driven that many miles is the few years they have actually
been available. To be honest I had forgotten about the awful old 2 Door
pick-up based 4Runners Toyota sold in the 80's and was only thinking of the
90's and beyond models.

Post by DTJ
Honda and Toyota are two of the extremely few companies that can
actually build an engine. Ford, Chrysler, GM, Mercedes, and a bunch
of others just suck. Every Honda I have owned has gone over 100,000
miles without burning a drop of oil. I have never had an American car
come even close.

Now it is my turn to wonder what you are doing wrong. I can't remember the
last time I had an engine give me any problems and that includes 5 Fords that
went over 130,000 miles (several way over). My Sister has a very nice Civic,
but it already burns more than a quart of oil in 1000 miles and it is no where
near 100,000 miles. Her old '80 Accord also used more than a little oil also.
It never had the chance to make a 100,000 miles (totaled in an accident).
However, all cars burn oil. Some more than others, but anytime someone says
their car doesn't burn a drop, I suggest that they think about how piston
engines lubricate the pistons and valves.

Post by DTJ
I laugh at Cadillac saying 100,000 without a tune up. Sure, but just
because the plugs are still firing doesn't make up for the 3 quarts of
oil per mile it burns...

I don't know about Cadillacs, but my 1997 Expedition easily made it to 100,000
with nothing more than regular oil and filter changes. I did change the plugs
at 100,000 miles, but the one I took out looked perfect. Also, I did have to
replace the alternator at around 101,000 miles, but that sure beat the Toyota
I owned that needed a new one every summer.

Ed

[DTJ]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:27:53 GMT, "C. E. White"

Post by C. E. White

Post by DTJ
some other idiot wrote...

Post by C. E. White
I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.

Your inability to take care of a vehicle does not an impartial study
make.

Exactly what do you do to keep relays from failing? How do you keep the stupid
alternator from cooking the internal regulator every summer? What maintenance
do you suggest to keep the A/C from failing? Just how often do you have to
change the transmission fluid in a Toyota transmission to keep it from going
belly up (monthly?)? What treatment would have stopped all the black trim from
fading to white? What should Ii have done to keep the internal plastic from
turning white and cracking in less than 5 years? Is repainting the car routine
maintenance for a Toyota? Did I forget to change the oil in the starter or is
there some sort of magic to keep them going for more than three years? I
don't doubt that someone could drive a 4Runner 500,000 miles, I just doubted
that one had been driven that many miles is the few years they have actually
been available. To be honest I had forgotten about the awful old 2 Door
pick-up based 4Runners Toyota sold in the 80's and was only thinking of the
90's and beyond models.

I understand now - you thought you bought a Toyota, but it really was
a Ford.

Post by C. E. White

Post by DTJ
Honda and Toyota are two of the extremely few companies that can
actually build an engine. Ford, Chrysler, GM, Mercedes, and a bunch
of others just suck. Every Honda I have owned has gone over 100,000
miles without burning a drop of oil. I have never had an American car
come even close.

Now it is my turn to wonder what you are doing wrong. I can't remember the
last time I had an engine give me any problems and that includes 5 Fords that
went over 130,000 miles (several way over). My Sister has a very nice Civic,
but it already burns more than a quart of oil in 1000 miles and it is no where
near 100,000 miles. Her old '80 Accord also used more than a little oil also.
It never had the chance to make a 100,000 miles (totaled in an accident).
However, all cars burn oil. Some more than others, but anytime someone says
their car doesn't burn a drop, I suggest that they think about how piston
engines lubricate the pistons and valves.

You obviously are a liar and a troll. Nobody on the planet believes
that you could possibly have owned the 5 Fords made since 1900 that
actually were well made.

Post by C. E. White

Post by DTJ
I laugh at Cadillac saying 100,000 without a tune up. Sure, but just
because the plugs are still firing doesn't make up for the 3 quarts of
oil per mile it burns...

I don't know about Cadillacs, but my 1997 Expedition easily made it to 100,000
with nothing more than regular oil and filter changes. I did change the plugs
at 100,000 miles, but the one I took out looked perfect. Also, I did have to
replace the alternator at around 101,000 miles, but that sure beat the Toyota
I owned that needed a new one every summer.

Now we know you are lying. First, you say you changed the "plugs",
then you say the "one you took out" looked perfect, which anybody who
has ever changed a plug knows is bullshit.

Go back to troll land moron.

[AZGuy]

Troll.

Post by DTJ
some other idiot wrote...

Post by Chris Phillipo

Post by C. E. White
I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.

Your inability to take care of a vehicle does not an impartial study
make.
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:07:44 -0400, Chris Phillipo

Post by Chris Phillipo
I know someone with an 88 that has 430,000 km on it, it works great but
there is virtually none of the original body left on it. Mine only has
140,000 km on it, it's a 93 and to people who don't know how to
differentiate model years it looks like it's only 3 or 4 years old. Of
course I've had it painted a few times and the head gasket went on it
once but other than those few major expensive its been basically put gas
in it and drive. I hope to god I don't have it for 400,000 km though,
I'm pretty bored with it now actually.

Honda and Toyota are two of the extremely few companies that can
actually build an engine. Ford, Chrysler, GM, Mercedes, and a bunch
of others just suck. Every Honda I have owned has gone over 100,000
miles without burning a drop of oil. I have never had an American car
come even close.
I laugh at Cadillac saying 100,000 without a tune up. Sure, but just
because the plugs are still firing doesn't make up for the 3 quarts of
oil per mile it burns...

[Lon Stowell]

Post by C. E. White
I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles.

And yet there are people who regularly run their vehivles into
the multiple 100K range. Most tend to pay attention to the
condition of the vehicle, perform reasonable preventative
maintenance, avoid using cheap parts to save a few bucks, and
take care of small items before they become big items. These
seem to be able to do it to pretty much any style of vehicle
or brand.

Post by C. E. White
However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.

Any owner that can't get 80,000 miles out of pretty much any car
sold in the last 3 decades shouldn't be allowed near cars in the
first place. I've gotten over 200K on an old 60's Chev. Just
takes care.

Post by C. E. White
Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles,
but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.

Whereas I have a rotary with similar miles that still runs nicely.
With the exception of the clutch, thermal reactor, and cat convertor,
none of the major mech components have needed replacement. They
have gotten regular loving care even though not particularly
driven with utmost care. Have also taken a Volvo 164E past the
300K mark with even fewer mech repairs. And a Porsche, which was
slightly cheaper than the Volvo to keep in repair.

[C. E. White]

Post by Lon Stowell

Post by C. E. White
However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.

Any owner that can't get 80,000 miles out of pretty much any car
sold in the last 3 decades shouldn't be allowed near cars in the
first place. I've gotten over 200K on an old 60's Chev. Just
takes care.

It less than 80,000 miles we replaced one starter, 3 alternators, 3 relays,
an A/C condenser, several power window switches, 1 paint job, all the black
trim needed replacing, interior plastic turned white, one power antenna, last
straw was transmission (fluid had been changed 3 times in 80,000 miles). It
was a POS from day one. It was the least satisfactory car I ever owned. I
have had less reliable cars, but never one than combined dull looks, horrible
handling, uncomfortable interior, and unreliability all in one horrible
combination. Oh what a feeling. Oh yeah, the engine was still running fine.

Ed

[Chris Phillipo]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Lon Stowell

Post by C. E. White
However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.

Any owner that can't get 80,000 miles out of pretty much any car
sold in the last 3 decades shouldn't be allowed near cars in the
first place. I've gotten over 200K on an old 60's Chev. Just
takes care.

It less than 80,000 miles we replaced one starter, 3 alternators, 3 relays,
an A/C condenser, several power window switches, 1 paint job, all the black

Just a shot in the dark but it sounds like you mechanic didn't diagnose
the initial charging problem that may have went on to kill all those
things. (except the cosmetics of course)

Post by C. E. White
trim needed replacing, interior plastic turned white, one power antenna, last
straw was transmission (fluid had been changed 3 times in 80,000 miles). It
was a POS from day one. It was the least satisfactory car I ever owned. I
have had less reliable cars, but never one than combined dull looks, horrible
handling, uncomfortable interior, and unreliability all in one horrible
combination. Oh what a feeling. Oh yeah, the engine was still running fine.
Ed

Are we talking about a 4 runner here or something else? I don't think
I've met the person who had to rebuild a 4 Runner transmission yet.

[C. E. White]

Post by Chris Phillipo

Post by C. E. White

Post by Lon Stowell

Post by C. E. White
However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.

Any owner that can't get 80,000 miles out of pretty much any car
sold in the last 3 decades shouldn't be allowed near cars in the
first place. I've gotten over 200K on an old 60's Chev. Just
takes care.

It less than 80,000 miles we replaced one starter, 3 alternators, 3 relays,
an A/C condenser, several power window switches, 1 paint job, all the black

Just a shot in the dark but it sounds like you mechanic didn't diagnose
the initial charging problem that may have went on to kill all those
things. (except the cosmetics of course)

The problem was a crappy design. Toyota wedged the alternator next to
exhaust manifold in an area with virtually no air flow. As long as the
ex worked, we had no problems. When she worked, She only drove
realitively long distances in relatively cool weather. As soon as she
became a stay at home Mom, the alternator failed every August - always
in the middle of the day while she was poking around town. Replacement
alternators were hard to find. The generous folks at Toyota only sold
new $500+ replacements. None of the local parts stores listed a rebuild.
Finally I took it to a local rebuilder. He took one look at and without
me saying a word told me what car it came off of and why it was failing.
He also said it was very common. You want to hear about the crappy
starter? Another 500+ Toyota only part. The contact in the solenoid
burned out. The alternator rebuilder knew all about those also. He
carried the parts to fix them. The stupid A/C condensor just started
leaking for no apparent reason. The window switches just disassembled
themselves. It was a rolling pile of crap as far as I was concerned.

Post by Chris Phillipo
Are we talking about a 4 runner here or something else? I don't think
I've met the person who had to rebuild a 4 Runner transmission yet.

No it was a Cressida. An overpriced piece of junk.

Ed

[AZGuy]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 04:00:01 GMT, "C. E. White"

Post by C. E. White

Post by Chris Phillipo

Post by C. E. White

Post by Lon Stowell

Post by C. E. White
However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.

Any owner that can't get 80,000 miles out of pretty much any car
sold in the last 3 decades shouldn't be allowed near cars in the
first place. I've gotten over 200K on an old 60's Chev. Just
takes care.

It less than 80,000 miles we replaced one starter, 3 alternators, 3 relays,
an A/C condenser, several power window switches, 1 paint job, all the black

Just a shot in the dark but it sounds like you mechanic didn't diagnose
the initial charging problem that may have went on to kill all those
things. (except the cosmetics of course)

The problem was a crappy design. Toyota wedged the alternator next to
exhaust manifold in an area with virtually no air flow. As long as the
ex worked, we had no problems. When she worked, She only drove
realitively long distances in relatively cool weather. As soon as she
became a stay at home Mom, the alternator failed every August - always
in the middle of the day while she was poking around town. Replacement
alternators were hard to find. The generous folks at Toyota only sold
new $500+ replacements. None of the local parts stores listed a rebuild.
Finally I took it to a local rebuilder. He took one look at and without
me saying a word told me what car it came off of and why it was failing.
He also said it was very common. You want to hear about the crappy
starter? Another 500+ Toyota only part. The contact in the solenoid
burned out. The alternator rebuilder knew all about those also. He
carried the parts to fix them. The stupid A/C condensor just started
leaking for no apparent reason. The window switches just disassembled
themselves. It was a rolling pile of crap as far as I was concerned.

Post by Chris Phillipo
Are we talking about a 4 runner here or something else? I don't think
I've met the person who had to rebuild a 4 Runner transmission yet.

No it was a Cressida. An overpriced piece of junk.
Ed

People will spend $5000 to make their toyota/honda/nissan make it to
150K. But if they have to spend $2500 on their Ford for the same
mileage they start screaming how awful Fords are and how they will
never buy another one. Not to mention that they probably paid $2500
more for the "import" then for the Ford in the first place.

[DTJ]

Post by AZGuy
People will spend $5000 to make their toyota/honda/nissan make it to
150K. But if they have to spend $2500 on their Ford for the same
mileage they start screaming how awful Fords are and how they will
never buy another one. Not to mention that they probably paid $2500
more for the "import" then for the Ford in the first place.

Hey trollboy, statistics show that the cost to get an "American made"
vehicle to 100,000 miles is 3 times as much as getting a Honda or
Toyota to go 300,000 miles.

My own experience, no Honda I have owned has ever needed more than
oil, gas, brakes and tires to go 100,000 miles. On the other hand,
EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
miles.

[Douglas A. Shrader]

. On the other hand,

Post by DTJ
EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
miles.

You call the others liers and then make a statement like this.

[Garth Almgren]

Post by DTJ
. On the other hand,

Post by DTJ
EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
miles.

You call the others liers and then make a statement like this.

Seriously. That's either a case of neglect, or just plain bad luck.

I've driven my Mustang almost 50,000 miles (about 98,500 on the clock),
and aside from "oil, gas, brakes and tires", I've only spent about $600
on mechanical repairs.

It is not unusual to find 500,000 mile Ford taxis and police cars. Nor
is it unusual to find 100,000 mile 5.0 FoMoCo vehicles (Mustangs,
T-birds, full-sized cars, trucks, etc.) with lots of life left.

It all comes down to basic maintenance; neglect any car, and it's not
going to last. And, true, once in a while you get a true lemon, but
they're nowhere near as common as popular belief would dictate.

[DTJ]

Post by Garth Almgren

Post by Douglas A. Shrader

Post by DTJ
EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
miles.

You call the others liers and then make a statement like this.

Seriously. That's either a case of neglect, or just plain bad luck.

Neither. I am just playing the same word games asshole was.

Let's see - purchase car for $5000, drive it 20,000 miles, spend $1000
on repairs, sell for $1000 3 years later - total cost = $5000 for
20,000 miles.

It comes down to statistics, really. Asshole buys Toyota for whatever
price, with whatever miles on it, got something that wasn't taken care
of. Then goes on to complain that in spite of his not maintaining it,
the vehicle failed. Gee I wonder why.

Now, why have all my Honda's done so well? Simple. Bought NEW, with
LESS THAN 10 miles on them. Dealer never had a chance to fuck them
up. Took care of them. Pretty simple, huh?

[DTJ]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 19:32:42 -0500, "Douglas A. Shrader"

Post by DTJ
. On the other hand,

Post by DTJ
EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
miles.

You call the others liers and then make a statement like this.

Sure, why not. Of course, you could ask WHY they cost me that much,
and how many I owned that did. Sort of like the asshole claiming his
Toyota was the biggest piece of shit on the road, but not mentioning
that he bought it from a group of 18-year olds who used it to race off
road, never changed the oil, and frequently cleared all 4 wheels off
the ground...

[AZGuy]

Post by DTJ

Post by AZGuy
People will spend $5000 to make their toyota/honda/nissan make it to
150K. But if they have to spend $2500 on their Ford for the same
mileage they start screaming how awful Fords are and how they will
never buy another one. Not to mention that they probably paid $2500
more for the "import" then for the Ford in the first place.

Hey trollboy, statistics show that the cost to get an "American made"
vehicle to 100,000 miles is 3 times as much as getting a Honda or
Toyota to go 300,000 miles.
My own experience, no Honda I have owned has ever needed more than
oil, gas, brakes and tires to go 100,000 miles. On the other hand,
EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
miles.

Really. You are indeed the consummate asshole. Only an asshole like
you would pay $20,000 for a vehicle and then another $25,000 to
maintain it. I think your own statements prove you are a dickless
Troll.

[DTJ]

Post by AZGuy
Really. You are indeed the consummate asshole. Only an asshole like
you would pay $20,000 for a vehicle and then another $25,000 to
maintain it. I think your own statements prove you are a dickless
Troll.

Oh my, you really hurt me with that one. I don't know whether it hurt
worse to have you make up how much I paid for something, or to realize
you have penis envy.

[Lon Stowell]

Post by DTJ

Post by AZGuy
People will spend $5000 to make their toyota/honda/nissan make it to
150K. But if they have to spend $2500 on their Ford for the same
mileage they start screaming how awful Fords are and how they will
never buy another one. Not to mention that they probably paid $2500
more for the "import" then for the Ford in the first place.

Hey trollboy, statistics show that the cost to get an "American made"
vehicle to 100,000 miles is 3 times as much as getting a Honda or
Toyota to go 300,000 miles.
My own experience, no Honda I have owned has ever needed more than
oil, gas, brakes and tires to go 100,000 miles. On the other hand,
EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
miles.

Umm, not to question your credibility and record keeping here,
but that would be roughly equivalent to something like a full
engine rebuild roughly every two years. Unless you have the
unfortunate habit of buying such classics as the 8-4-2 Cadillac
or worse the diesel Oldsmobile, you must have the luck level of
Joe Bfstplk.

[DTJ]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 03:04:10 GMT, Lon Stowell

Post by Lon Stowell
Umm, not to question your credibility and record keeping here,
but that would be roughly equivalent to something like a full
engine rebuild roughly every two years. Unless you have the

Notice I never mentioned the condition of the car when I bought it,
much like the asshole azguy who forgot to mention that the imports he
bought were all pieces of shit due to the previous owner's abuse,
added to by his inability to find where to stick the dipstick. Sort
of the same problem he has finding other holes.

[Del Rawlins]

Post by DTJ
On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 03:04:10 GMT, Lon Stowell

Post by Lon Stowell
Umm, not to question your credibility and record keeping here,
but that would be roughly equivalent to something like a full
engine rebuild roughly every two years. Unless you have the

Notice I never mentioned the condition of the car when I bought it,
much like the asshole azguy who forgot to mention that the imports he
bought were all pieces of shit due to the previous owner's abuse,
added to by his inability to find where to stick the dipstick. Sort
of the same problem he has finding other holes.

He's obviously found at least one asshole.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- ***@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[C. E. White]

Post by DTJ

Post by AZGuy
People will spend $5000 to make their toyota/honda/nissan make it to
150K. But if they have to spend $2500 on their Ford for the same
mileage they start screaming how awful Fords are and how they will
never buy another one. Not to mention that they probably paid $2500
more for the "import" then for the Ford in the first place.

Hey trollboy, statistics show that the cost to get an "American made"
vehicle to 100,000 miles is 3 times as much as getting a Honda or
Toyota to go 300,000 miles.

How about some backup to this statistic? It sound like BS to me.

Post by DTJ
My own experience, no Honda I have owned has ever needed more than
oil, gas, brakes and tires to go 100,000 miles. On the other hand,
EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
miles.

I have not spend $5000 on mechanical repairs on all the Fords I have
owned in my life (34 years of driving, 13 Fords). At least 3 of those
exceeded 140,000 miles while I owned them and only five had less than
90,000. In addition, in the last 34 years, the rest of may family has
owned 15 Fords, and all of them plus all of mine added together have not
required $5000 worth of repairs in total. In terms of money spent on
repairs, the worst tree cars I owned were all Japanes - Toyota Cressida,
Datsun 280Z, Mazada 626 in that order. The worst American car I owned was
a Plymouth Reliant, but all the problems I had (and there were many) were
handled by the warranty (they never had to fix the same problem twice).
In terms of out of warranty repiar costs, paid by me, the following list
is from worst to best repair costs are estimates and are from memory and
probably not particualrly accurate):

Car (new/used, approximate reapir expenses, mileage when disposed)
'83 Toyota Cressida (new, $3000, 80k miles) - sold
'75 Datsun 280 Z (new, $1500, 50k miles) - sold to friend
'83 Mazda 626 (new, $1100, 60k miles) - sold to Sister
'92 F150 (new, $1000, 92k miles) - currently own
'75 Jensen Healey (used, $900, parts, 20k miles) - sold
'74 Jensen Healey (used, $800, parts, 15k miles) - sold
'97 Ford Expedition (new, $600, 150k miles) - traded on 2003 Expedition
'81 Audi Coupe (new, $500, 50k miles) - traded on Mada 626
'86 Mercury Sable (new, $400, 140k miles) - sold to friend
'78 Ford Fiesta (used, $300, 140k miles) - sold
'72 Ford Pinto (new, $200, 100K miles) - sold
'86 Ford Ranger (used, $100, 90k miles) - wrecked/sold
'01 Ford Mustang (new, $70, 37k miles) - traded on Vue
'78 Ford Couirer (used, $0, 90k miles) - sold
'89 Ford Taurus (new, $0, 30k miles) - ex got in divorce
'78 Ford Fairmont (new, $0, 36k miles) - sold
'81 Plymouth Reliant (new, $0, 18k miles) - traded on Audi Coupe
'73 Ford Pinto (used, $0, 90k miles) - sold to friend
'03 Ford Expedition (new, $0, 37k miles) - currently own
'03 Saturn Vue (new, $0, 6k miles) - currently own
'95 Ford Explorer (new, $0, 32K miles) - traded for '97 Expedition

The lsit does not include routine maintenace and wear items (brake pads,
etc.).

My Sister has owned two Hondas ('80 Accord, '97 Civic). Both have been
excellent cars. However both have need some minor repairs. The current
Civic has around 50k miles and so far has needed plug wires, a muffler,
and couple of interior plastic parts that broke off. The paint on her
bumper is flaking off and the engine consume some oil (1 quart in 1k
miles or so). I replaced the plug wires and muffler, so her total repair
bill to date is less than $200 (parts only). So on my list, it rates
about the same as a 1972 Pinto.

Ed

[DTJ]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 10:39:49 -0500, "C. E. White"

Post by C. E. White
Car (new/used, approximate reapir expenses, mileage when disposed)
'83 Toyota Cressida (new, $3000, 80k miles) - sold
'75 Datsun 280 Z (new, $1500, 50k miles) - sold to friend
'83 Mazda 626 (new, $1100, 60k miles) - sold to Sister
The lsit does not include routine maintenace and wear items (brake pads,
etc.).

Interesting how you compare the worst years of imports against the
"best" years of domestics. Not that ford, chrysler or GM really have
"best" years...

[C. E. White]

Post by DTJ
On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 10:39:49 -0500, "C. E. White"

Post by C. E. White
Car (new/used, approximate reapir expenses, mileage when disposed)
'83 Toyota Cressida (new, $3000, 80k miles) - sold
'75 Datsun 280 Z (new, $1500, 50k miles) - sold to friend
'83 Mazda 626 (new, $1100, 60k miles) - sold to Sister
The lsit does not include routine maintenace and wear items (brake pads,
etc.).

Interesting how you compare the worst years of imports against the
"best" years of domestics. Not that ford, chrysler or GM really have
"best" years...

What do you mean? I also listed domestics from the 70's, 80's, '90, '00
- you just cut off all the good cars. Are you implying that all those
years were the "best" years for domestics? I am only comparing what I
owned. After that Toyota, I wasn't really interested in getting screwed
again. It wasn't just that the Toyota was a money pit, it was also slow,
ugly, cramped, and handled like a horse cart. At least the Datsun drove
nicely and looked great. The Mazda was a nice body style (5 door), got
decent gas mileage, and had a nice transmisison (5 speed). The Toyta had
no redeeming values except that my ex liked it (but amazingly she was
more than ready to get rid of it when the transmission screwed up). Oh
what a feeling.

Ed

[Chris Phillipo]

Post by C. E. White
alternators were hard to find. The generous folks at Toyota only sold
new $500+ replacements. None of the local parts stores listed a rebuild.
Finally I took it to a local rebuilder. He took one look at and without
me saying a word told me what car it came off of and why it was failing.
He also said it was very common. You want to hear about the crappy
starter? Another 500+ Toyota only part. The contact in the solenoid
burned out. The alternator rebuilder knew all about those also. He
carried the parts to fix them. The stupid A/C condensor just started
leaking for no apparent reason. The window switches just disassembled
themselves. It was a rolling pile of crap as far as I was concerned.

Post by Chris Phillipo
Are we talking about a 4 runner here or something else? I don't think
I've met the person who had to rebuild a 4 Runner transmission yet.

No it was a Cressida. An overpriced piece of junk.
Ed

So you paid over $30,000 for a car over 10 years ago and you think that
$500 would be a bit much for an alternator or starter on a car in the
same class as the BMW 5 series? Let me let you in on a few secrets. AC
systems fail, they fail on 5 day old cars, they fail on 5 year old cars.
Second, if you have an exhaust heat problem, fixing the symptoms is not
going to fix the problem. You either had a bad heat shield or a rich
running condition. And third, I don't know what any of this has to do
with the reliability of 4 runners so why you brought it up is beyond me.
My advice, spend half as much on a car next time and feel 1/4 of the
buyers remorse.

[Chris Phillipo]

Post by Chris Phillipo
So you paid over $30,000 for a car over 10 years ago and you think that
$500 would be a bit much for an alternator or starter on a car in the
same class as the BMW 5 series? Let me let you in on a few secrets. AC
systems fail, they fail on 5 day old cars, they fail on 5 year old cars.
Second, if you have an exhaust heat problem, fixing the symptoms is not
going to fix the problem. You either had a bad heat shield or a rich

Opps, that should read "lean running condition".

[C. E. White]

Post by Chris Phillipo

Post by Chris Phillipo
So you paid over $30,000 for a car over 10 years ago and you think that
$500 would be a bit much for an alternator or starter on a car in the
same class as the BMW 5 series? Let me let you in on a few secrets. AC
systems fail, they fail on 5 day old cars, they fail on 5 year old cars.
Second, if you have an exhaust heat problem, fixing the symptoms is not
going to fix the problem. You either had a bad heat shield or a rich

Opps, that should read "lean running condition".

I have no reason to think the exhaust was running hot. It was fuel injected
car. The placement of the alternator was just plain stupid. I don't know what
the fact that the car cost $20,000+ has to do with the cost of the starter or
alternator. Neither contributes to the "luxury" aspects of the car. The
starter and alternators on my $2000 pintos worked just as well and were far
more reliable.

Ed

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <***@mindspring.com>, ***@mindspring.com
says...

Post by C. E. White

Post by Chris Phillipo

Post by Chris Phillipo
So you paid over $30,000 for a car over 10 years ago and you think that
$500 would be a bit much for an alternator or starter on a car in the
same class as the BMW 5 series? Let me let you in on a few secrets. AC
systems fail, they fail on 5 day old cars, they fail on 5 year old cars.
Second, if you have an exhaust heat problem, fixing the symptoms is not
going to fix the problem. You either had a bad heat shield or a rich

Opps, that should read "lean running condition".

I have no reason to think the exhaust was running hot. It was fuel injected
car. The placement of the alternator was just plain stupid. I don't know what

Next to the engine, what a silly place to put an alternator. Much like
my 10 year old start that's under the exhaust manifold I guess.

Post by C. E. White
the fact that the car cost $20,000+ has to do with the cost of the starter or

Expensive parts are what make a car expensive. Get it?

[C. E. White]

Post by Chris Phillipo
Expensive parts are what make a car expensive. Get it?

No, expensive cars make otherwise standard replacement parts expensive.
There is no reason a replacement starter or alternator for a Cressida
should cost more than a Crown starter or alternator. A friend used to
work in a Chevy parts department. He claimed that if you looked up a
"Corvette" part, it would cost 15 to 20% more than the exact same part
for another Chevrolet.

Ed

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <***@mindspring.com>, ***@mindspring.com
says...

Post by C. E. White

Post by Chris Phillipo
Expensive parts are what make a car expensive. Get it?

No, expensive cars make otherwise standard replacement parts expensive.
There is no reason a replacement starter or alternator for a Cressida
should cost more than a Crown starter or alternator. A friend used to
work in a Chevy parts department. He claimed that if you looked up a
"Corvette" part, it would cost 15 to 20% more than the exact same part
for another Chevrolet.
Ed

Tell me, how many crow starter or alternators were made in Japan for
enthusiast sport sedans? And what does the cost of massive American
protectionist economy tarrifs on Japanese parts have to do with the
price of parts for some Chevy penile enhancement on wheels?

[Dave in Columbus]

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 22:43:36 -0400, Chris Phillipo

Post by Chris Phillipo
says...

Post by C. E. White

Post by Chris Phillipo
Expensive parts are what make a car expensive. Get it?

No, expensive cars make otherwise standard replacement parts expensive.
There is no reason a replacement starter or alternator for a Cressida
should cost more than a Crown starter or alternator. A friend used to
work in a Chevy parts department. He claimed that if you looked up a
"Corvette" part, it would cost 15 to 20% more than the exact same part
for another Chevrolet.
Ed

Tell me, how many crow starter or alternators were made in Japan for
enthusiast sport sedans? And what does the cost of massive American
protectionist economy tarrifs on Japanese parts have to do with the
price of parts for some Chevy penile enhancement on wheels?

Wow, Dude. You do have some issues, don't you?

[rnf2]

Post by Dave in Columbus
Wow, Dude. You do have some issues, don't you?

Just about everyone outside the US has issues.

The US wants free trade and no tariffs on US goods. Yet puts up it's own
import tariffs and increases subsidies.

Hypocrites.

rhys

[C.R. Krieger]

Post by rnf2

Post by Dave in Columbus
Wow, Dude. You do have some issues, don't you?

Just about everyone outside the US has issues.
The US wants free trade and no tariffs on US goods. Yet puts up it's own
import tariffs and increases subsidies.
Hypocrites.

Hey, *we* (the *majority* of Americans) didn't elect this moron!
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; drove that)

[LauraK]

Post by Paul Thomas
Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
has this problem )

Best place to check is:
http://www.edmunds.com
Read the reviews for the car, written by people who own it.
A used Honda RAV4 would probably be a better choice in terms of reliability.
They've been top rated for some time.
Consumer Reports has never thought much of Jeeps but I see a lot of old ones
around.
For what you want, also consider the Toyota Highlander. The first round should
be coming off lease.

***@madmousergraphics.com
http://www.madmousergraphics.com
web design, print design, photography

[C. E. White]

Post by LauraK
http://www.edmunds.com
Read the reviews for the car, written by people who own it.
A used Honda RAV4 would probably be a better choice in terms of reliability.
They've been top rated for some time.

I assume you meant a Toyota RAV4 - which has a bad injury loss rating - it is over
twice as high as the Ford Escape which has the best injury loss rating of the
small SUVs. And the RAV4 is not even rated particualrly well at Edmunds. It got a
Editor's Rating of 7.4 and a Consumers' Rating of 8.8. The Eascape had an Editor's
Rating of 7.6 and a Consumers' Rating of 9.3. Even the Libery beat the RAV4 -
Editior's Rating of 7.8 and a Consumers' Rating of 9.1. The RAV4 is actually one
of the lowest rated Small SUVs at the Edmunds site. If you don't like the Escape,
I'd suggest the Subaru Forrester over the RAV4. The Forrester is Consumer Report's
top rated small SUV - the Liberty is near the bottom of the CR list (the Xterra is
at the bottom).

My Sister has owned an Escape for almost three years now. She has needed one
reapir - the coolant level sensor failed. It has been a great vehicle. And judging
by the IIHS Injury loss ratings a very safe one (see
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_4wd_util.htm ). Persoanlly I own a
Saturn Vue, which I am satisfied with. It has not been back to the dealer yet
(5000 trouble free miles so far). Edmunds hates the Vue, but I am the one buying
and driving it.

Ed

[LauraK]

Post by C. E. White
I assume you meant a Toyota RAV4 - which has a bad injury loss rating -

No, I meant whatever Honda makes that looks the same. Didn't want to bother to
look it up. Ugly little thing.
Consumer reports always carries on about it.

***@madmousergraphics.com
http://www.madmousergraphics.com
web design, print design, photography

[C. E. White]

That would be the Honda Civic CR-V. A much better choice than the RAV4. Probably
not as good as the Escape, but not a bad choice.

Ed

Post by LauraK

Post by C. E. White
I assume you meant a Toyota RAV4 - which has a bad injury loss rating -

No, I meant whatever Honda makes that looks the same. Didn't want to bother to
look it up. Ugly little thing.
Consumer reports always carries on about it.
http://www.madmousergraphics.com
web design, print design, photography

[John Welch]

Post by Paul Thomas
I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of

OK, I own a 02 Liberty limited, a 99 Wrangler sport and a '49 Willys
pickup.
Also, I help my Mother run 50 head of cattle on a couple of hundred
acres in East Texas. This is my experience:
A locker would be nice. I hate to be on flat, slippery pasture and
cannot move because I am spinning out. We have to ford a creek to get
to the west pasture. The Liberty handles it better than the Wrangler.
I bought the Willys in Dillon, Montana back in 1980 and wife and I
beat the dickins out the the ecology of Beaverhead county in her all
summer long. I learned a few things along the way. Liberty and
Wrangler are pretty much evenly matched off road - stock, but I prefer
the ifs and the selectrac over the command trac on the Wrangler. We
get tropical downpours, 4 inch and hour, frog strangeling rainstorms.
I would prefer the Liberty, selectrac, and ABS to ending up like this:
http://lnc.grwelch.com/jeep.htm
Liberty will pull 5000 lbs. You can probablly lift a Liberty, I am
not sure, don't plan to.

If you do not plan to pull 5000 lbs and do not plan to lift the thing
then look at the Rangerover Freelander. I think that the Freelander
would be fine for chasing cows through the pasture, doodling bales of
hay with the tumble bug and dragging the occasional dead cow off down
into the woods, and really the only reason we went with the Liberty
was so that I could haul off the wreck of the Wrangler. (Wrangler is
back on the road now, by the way)

Our family has 25000+ on the Liberty with no problems. When the
Wrangler and the Liberty are as old as the Willys I think that the
Liberty will be a lot more trouble than the Wrangler - more electronic
stuff and I really did not want a sun roof; I know there is no way
that thing will last 60 years. Most people do not keep their vehicles
forever like us Jeep people, but then most people do not drive Jeeps.

If you like the Liberty hold out for one with the Selectrac and the
ABS. If it does not have the locking rear differential you will have
to have one put in later. I had U-Haul put in the trailer hitch but
letting the dealer do it would be ok.

Post by Paul Thomas
Thank you all for your help,
Paul Thomas

de nada,

[Nathan Collier]

Post by John Welch
Liberty and
Wrangler are pretty much evenly matched off road - stock

youve never truly tested the capabilities of your wrangler.

[John Welch]

Post by Nathan Collier

Post by John Welch
Liberty and
Wrangler are pretty much evenly matched off road - stock

Stock, dude, did you get that part, it is a stock (including stock
tires) wrangler.

Post by Nathan Collier
youve never truly tested the capabilities of your wrangler.

I work for Halliburton, not DC. I have a Liberty, a Wrangler, and a
Willys pick up, and Ford 600 tractor, 50 head of cattle and 200+ acres
of land to keep an eye on. In the past, I have had a Willys forward
control. Getting a jeep stuck is something (my wife thinks) I am
pretty good at. As a consequense, I know a little bit about
un-sticking one of them.

I planted this Wrangler down to the frame in mud on the way to the
beaver dam back Christmas of 01. My wife, her sister and wife's
brother in law were passengers and got to watch the festivities.
Having to call Grandmother on the cell phone to bring a tractor and a
winch pretty much demonstrates the limits of a (stock, get that part
through your head) wrangler.

Now, like I said, Me and the wife and the 49 Willys (a real Jeep) beat
the tulies all over south western Montana back in 80. Since then we
have had all kinds of fun all kinds of places. For what it is worth,
the Willys probablly would not have made it through there either.

Now on the other hand, fording the creek to get into the east pasture
is a decent chalenge and a fair place to do a head to head comparison.
It is 12+ feet deep, a mix of loose sand, mud, and big ruts that you
have to pick the right line through to keep from high centering. It
is just down and up, but it is a good place to make girls squeal. I
drive both the liberty and the wrangler through there all the time to
check on the cows. The liberty is a much more pleasant, secure ride.
I think that it is all to do with the difference between selectrac on
the Liberty as opposed to command trac on the Wrangler rather than ifs
vs solid axel. I am sure it is not the Liberty's sun roof, but it
might be the butt warmer.

I am starting to wonder though, am I the only one in this news group
that has taken a Liberty off road? Mine is still pretty new and wife
is quite possesive of it, but once the new wears off I aim to put
750-16 Farm Bureau mud tires all the way round on it and lock at least
the rear and then start having a little 'real fun'.

[Nathan Collier]

Post by John Welch
I am starting to wonder though, am I the only one in this news group
that has taken a Liberty off road?

ive only seen 1 or 2 on the trail, and ive _never_ seen one on an
"aggressive" trail such as tellico. aside from a toyota tacoma, im sure the
liberty is comparable to most any IFS 4x4 on the market in terms of off road
capability. that said, theres nothing "special" about it that would rank it
even with the tj, arguably the most capable swb jeep ever built (stock).
the clearance (for the wheelbase) is lacking (even before daimler lowered it
2 more inches in '02), the IFS components are "short arm" components..... to
say its comparable to a wrangler says youve never pushed the tj to its
limits. getting stuck in the mud isnt a true test of off road prowess. run
them both through the rubicon trail (without stacking rocks) and tell me
theyre even. i realize trails such as that are a minority and very few ever
see them, but its the capabilities on those very trails that sets jeep apart
from the other soft-roaders.

[twaldron]

I saw one on Engineer Pass in CO. I was stunned to say the least.
Engineer isn't the most difficult trail in CO, to say the least, but
it's no mall parking lot either.

Post by Nathan Collier

Post by John Welch
I am starting to wonder though, am I the only one in this news group
that has taken a Liberty off road?

ive only seen 1 or 2 on the trail, and ive _never_ seen one on an
"aggressive" trail such as tellico. aside from a toyota tacoma, im sure the
liberty is comparable to most any IFS 4x4 on the market in terms of off road
capability. that said, theres nothing "special" about it that would rank it
even with the tj, arguably the most capable swb jeep ever built (stock).
the clearance (for the wheelbase) is lacking (even before daimler lowered it
2 more inches in '02), the IFS components are "short arm" components..... to
say its comparable to a wrangler says youve never pushed the tj to its
limits. getting stuck in the mud isnt a true test of off road prowess. run
them both through the rubicon trail (without stacking rocks) and tell me
theyre even. i realize trails such as that are a minority and very few ever
see them, but its the capabilities on those very trails that sets jeep apart
from the other soft-roaders.

--
___________________________________________________________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry

Pronunciation: 'jEp
Function: noun
Date: 1940

Etymology: probably from g. p. (abbreviation of general purpose)
A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80-inch wheelbase,
1/4-ton capacity, and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in
World War II.

http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/tj/twaldron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
___________________________________________________________

[Barry Bean]

Post by Nathan Collier
run
them both through the rubicon trail (without stacking rocks) and tell
me theyre even. i realize trails such as that are a minority and very
few ever see them, but its the capabilities on those very trails that
sets jeep apart from the other soft-roaders.

Lets be serious - nobody (at least nobody in their right mind) is buying
the Liberty to run the Rubicon. Its a road mobile with the capacity to
handle mud, snow and ice. I bought one because I live on the farm, and need
4wd occasionally to get through muddy fields or to the duck blind. The rest
of teh time, I want a comfortable ride to take my woife out to dinner in.

If I wanted to run the Rubicon, I'd buy a serious off-road mobile like an
old CJ5 or my old 74 Bronco. But these aren't the vehicles I want for the
daily commute or even to run to the store for parts.

[Will Honea]

Post by John Welch
Now on the other hand, fording the creek to get into the east pasture
is a decent chalenge and a fair place to do a head to head comparison.
It is 12+ feet deep, a mix of loose sand, mud, and big ruts that you
have to pick the right line through to keep from high centering. It
is just down and up, but it is a good place to make girls squeal. I
drive both the liberty and the wrangler through there all the time to
check on the cows. The liberty is a much more pleasant, secure ride.
I think that it is all to do with the difference between selectrac on
the Liberty as opposed to command trac on the Wrangler rather than ifs
vs solid axel. I am sure it is not the Liberty's sun roof, but it
might be the butt warmer.

12+ feet? That's a river, not a creek Where do you store the
snorkles? Oh, you mean the cut, not the water depth. My problem with
fording a ditch like that is usually the approach/depature angles
since I seem to hang the bumper on one end or the other so that's
gives the Wrangler a definte edge.

[John Welch]

Post by Will Honea

Post by John Welch
Now on the other hand, fording the creek to get into the east pasture

[...]

Post by Will Honea
12+ feet? That's a river, not a creek Where do you store the
snorkles? Oh, you mean the cut, not the water depth. My problem with
fording a ditch like that is usually the approach/depature angles
since I seem to hang the bumper on one end or the other so that's
gives the Wrangler a definte edge.

Actually, the tail pipe of the wrangler is under water going
blub-blub-blub while I am trying to straightn up and get a bite of
something that will let it climb up the other side. Every other time
through the Wrangler spins out, so it is rock back and forth, etc.
Liberty does not loose traction. No problem with approach or
departure. Probablly the selectrac.

Plans are to take both vehicles and a camcorder up to the farm after
eating too much bird on t-day and getting some real ground-truth
(remote sensing lingo that). I will try to get a web page built. I
suggested to wife we hook up the two rigs with a tow strap across the
creek and play 'tug of war.' Her response was not fit to post. I
think I can get my nephews interested. Weather should be muddy but
not to cold.

[John Welch]

Post by Nathan Collier

Post by John Welch
Liberty and
Wrangler are pretty much evenly matched off road - stock

youve never truly tested the capabilities of your wrangler.

So what. I *HAVE* tested the capabilities of the Willys. I have also
busted it lots of time out in the tulies. The Wrangler has fewer
things I could not begin to fix than does the Liberty (like the stupid
sun roof), but as far as 'sure footed-ness' the Liberty is at least
even, probablly due to the selectract. One of the most important
'capabilities' of 'real' jeep is its ability to last 60 years and
still be kicking ass. Liberty will probablly fail this test, but we
will see.

[Jerry Bransford]

I learned a few things along the way. Liberty and

Post by John Welch
Wrangler are pretty much evenly matched off road - stock,

If you honestly believe that, you haven't really done any serious (SERIOUS!)
offroading with your Wrangler. I kid you not.

Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

[Don]

If a Ford is a 4, then I'd have to say a Jeep would be about a -20. Maybe
the CJ a -10.

Note I'm note talking about off road capability - no arguments there - most
Jeeps do well there. Note I say most Jeeps - the Liberty being the
exception. Just plain reliability, mechanical, etc, the Jeeps fall apart.

Sorry to you Jeep lovers - just from my and every one I know experience.

Post by Paul Thomas
I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
safety features?
Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
has this problem )
I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
reliability?
Thank you all for your help,
Paul Thomas

[Jerry Bransford]

Heh, I always have to laugh at the trolls.
--
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

Post by Don
If a Ford is a 4, then I'd have to say a Jeep would be about a -20. Maybe
the CJ a -10.
Note I'm note talking about off road capability - no arguments there - most
Jeeps do well there. Note I say most Jeeps - the Liberty being the
exception. Just plain reliability, mechanical, etc, the Jeeps fall apart.
Sorry to you Jeep lovers - just from my and every one I know experience.

Post by Paul Thomas
I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
safety features?
Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
has this problem )
I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
reliability?
Thank you all for your help,
Paul Thomas

[Del Rawlins]

Post by Jerry Bransford
Heh, I always have to laugh at the trolls.

How many miles does your Jeep have on it these days, Jerry? Not to
mention all of the hard wheeling. My brother's '97 TJ is over 100K now
and the only problems he has had with it have all been self-inflicted.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- ***@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[Jerry Bransford]

It's up to 128,000 miles now Del, not doing too bad at all for that many
miles either. :) How's that winch doing? My TJ's issues are all
owner-inflicted as well. ;)

Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

Post by Del Rawlins

Post by Jerry Bransford
Heh, I always have to laugh at the trolls.

How many miles does your Jeep have on it these days, Jerry? Not to
mention all of the hard wheeling. My brother's '97 TJ is over 100K now
and the only problems he has had with it have all been self-inflicted.
----------------------------------------------------
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

[Dan J.S.]

Post by Jerry Bransford
Heh, I always have to laugh at the trolls.
--
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

Look at jdpower.com - facts do not lie. 2002 Jeep Wrangler, 2 out of 5 stars
for mechanical quality. 2 out of 5 for mechanical reliability. These numbers
do not lie. Jeep is a great name, Chryco managed to turn it into crap. I
used to be a jeep fan, until a jeep left me stranded once too many times.

[C. E. White]

Post by Dan J.S.
Look at jdpower.com - facts do not lie. 2002 Jeep Wrangler, 2 out of 5 stars
for mechanical quality. 2 out of 5 for mechanical reliability. These numbers
do not lie. Jeep is a great name, Chryco managed to turn it into crap. I
used to be a jeep fan, until a jeep left me stranded once too many times.

How do you explain that Buicks show up as nuch more reliable than Pontiacs or
Oldsmobiles? These different brands are built by the same poeple in the same
factories using mostly the same parts, but they have different reliability
ratings.

In my opinion, the JD Powers surveys are more a measure of the success of the
advertising campaign than of the performance of the vehicles. For example if you
comapare a 4Runner, Explorer, and Mountaineer, the Explorer is rated lower than
the 4Runner in a couple of categories. However, the Mountaineer is rated nearly
the same as a 4Runner - how can that be? The Explorer and Moutaineer are for all
practical purposes the same vehicle. A Mountaineer is not any more reliable than
an Explorer, yet it was rated the same as the 4Runner and above the Explorer.
Clearly the JD Power ratings are nearly meaningless.

Ed

[Dan J.S.]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Dan J.S.
Look at jdpower.com - facts do not lie. 2002 Jeep Wrangler, 2 out of 5 stars
for mechanical quality. 2 out of 5 for mechanical reliability. These numbers
do not lie. Jeep is a great name, Chryco managed to turn it into crap. I
used to be a jeep fan, until a jeep left me stranded once too many times.

How do you explain that Buicks show up as nuch more reliable than Pontiacs or
Oldsmobiles? These different brands are built by the same poeple in the same
factories using mostly the same parts, but they have different reliability
ratings.
In my opinion, the JD Powers surveys are more a measure of the success of the
advertising campaign than of the performance of the vehicles. For example if you
comapare a 4Runner, Explorer, and Mountaineer, the Explorer is rated lower than
the 4Runner in a couple of categories. However, the Mountaineer is rated nearly
the same as a 4Runner - how can that be? The Explorer and Moutaineer are for all
practical purposes the same vehicle. A Mountaineer is not any more reliable than
an Explorer, yet it was rated the same as the 4Runner and above the Explorer.
Clearly the JD Power ratings are nearly meaningless.
Ed

Buicks and Lincolns are all premium brands, and there is an extra layer of
QC when putting them together. It's like comparing Toyota and the Lexus
line. Look at how many buicks are put out in 24 men hours and how many
pontiacs. Right now, the average is something like 1.5 pontiacs per 24 hours
vs 1 buick in the same 24 hour period. What I mean is it takes 24 hours to
build one buick and something like 12-14 hours to build one pontiac (all men
hours, actual times are obviously less). It's very similar to Ford and the
Lincoln brands. I am getting these stats from April 2003 AutoWeek magazine.

[C. E. White]

Post by Dan J.S.

Post by C. E. White

Post by Dan J.S.
Look at jdpower.com - facts do not lie. 2002 Jeep Wrangler, 2 out of 5

stars

Post by C. E. White

Post by Dan J.S.
for mechanical quality. 2 out of 5 for mechanical reliability. These

numbers

Post by C. E. White

Post by Dan J.S.
do not lie. Jeep is a great name, Chryco managed to turn it into crap. I
used to be a jeep fan, until a jeep left me stranded once too many

times.

Post by C. E. White
How do you explain that Buicks show up as nuch more reliable than Pontiacs

or

Post by C. E. White
Oldsmobiles? These different brands are built by the same poeple in the

same

Post by C. E. White
factories using mostly the same parts, but they have different reliability
ratings.
In my opinion, the JD Powers surveys are more a measure of the success of

the

Post by C. E. White
advertising campaign than of the performance of the vehicles. For example

if you

Post by C. E. White
comapare a 4Runner, Explorer, and Mountaineer, the Explorer is rated lower

than

Post by C. E. White
the 4Runner in a couple of categories. However, the Mountaineer is rated

nearly

Post by C. E. White
the same as a 4Runner - how can that be? The Explorer and Moutaineer are

for all

Post by C. E. White
practical purposes the same vehicle. A Mountaineer is not any more

reliable than

Post by C. E. White
an Explorer, yet it was rated the same as the 4Runner and above the

Explorer.

Post by C. E. White
Clearly the JD Power ratings are nearly meaningless.
Ed

Buicks and Lincolns are all premium brands, and there is an extra layer of
QC when putting them together. It's like comparing Toyota and the Lexus
line. Look at how many buicks are put out in 24 men hours and how many
pontiacs. Right now, the average is something like 1.5 pontiacs per 24 hours
vs 1 buick in the same 24 hour period. What I mean is it takes 24 hours to
build one buick and something like 12-14 hours to build one pontiac (all men
hours, actual times are obviously less). It's very similar to Ford and the
Lincoln brands. I am getting these stats from April 2003 AutoWeek magazine.

Several models are built at the same time in the same factory by the
same people. All the parts are virtually the same (engines,
transmissions, suspension). For instance, the Orion Assembly Plant
builds Pontiac Bonnevilles, Buick LaSabres, Buick Park Avenues, and
Oldsmobile Aurora concurrently. There is no way they are spending 50%
more time on the Buicks than on the Pontiacs at that factory. I suppose
it you averaged all Pontiac models together and all Buick models
together the Buick models might take more time on average, but I do not
believe that the difference exists for models built on the same assembly
line. If you go to JD Powers site and compare the 2001 Bonneville, Park
Avenue and Aurora, you will see that the results are all over the place.
If this was a true gauge of reliability, they should be almost
identical. But in some categories one car is a 5, another a 3, and the
third a 2. This just illustrates how faulty this particular survey
methodology is. So claiming that a Toyota is better because of this
survey is silly.

Regards,

Ed White

[Don]

Sorry if I pissed anyone off folks - no trolling intended.

Paul asked for opinions and I offered mine. Everyone I know that has had a
odern Jeep wishes he hadn't. Now to qualify that - I have not heard many
bad things about the CJ/Wrangler - these were all the Cherokee/Grand
Cherokee/Larado (sp?) models.

In addition, we bought a bunch of them as construction vehicles to supervise
an off road project - not a lot of mud - just a lot of rough terrain. Every
one of them had things falling apart - i.e. hand brake lever came
disconnected from linkage; hand brake lever button fell out so hand brake
would not engage; 4wd engagement lever came disconnected from linkage
(several times) so could not put in 4wd; power windows quick working;
speedometer quit working; radio quit working; drivers seat quit sliding in
its track so could not adjust; paint flaked off of metal and door trim; door
trim (protective strip to avoid door dings) started falling off; etc; etc;
etc.

Now, in retrospect, perhaps I used the incorrect terminology - perhaps I
should have said "hardware" fell apart - not mechanical failure. None of
the company Jeeps broke down in terms of engine (although some of them had a
hell of a wrist pin knock in them for a new engine); transmission; U-joints;
etc. And as I said earlier, they are great for off road - none of them got
stuck. However when you pay that much for a vehicle I expect all parts of
it to hold together better than they did.

Now to the second part. I did not set the judging criteria, Jerry did. He
asked if a Ford was a 4 what would a Jeep be. We have switched across the
board with Ford pickups now for construction vehicles - F-150's; F-250's,
F-350's both 2wd and 4wd. NONE of them have broken mechanically OR HAD
HARDWARE FALLING APART!!! So, by the scale that Jerry set, I still have to
give the Jeeps a big bad negative number. If they would only make the
various hardware pieces as good as the suspension and powertrain, they would
have a great vehicle.

Now I realize, I am still pissing off some Jeep lovers for which I
apologize. However, Jerry asked for an opinion, which I offered. I would
like to think that anyone can offer an opinion based on his personal
experience in this group without being labeled TROLL or shit on. If others
have had great experiences, then let them speak up and share their
experiences. I can only offer my experience which unfortunately was not
satisfactory.

I would love to hear other peoples opinions and experiences - without the
TROLL comments and other shitty commentary. Lets give Jerry as much
legitimate information as we can and let him make a decision.

Don

Post by Jerry Bransford
Heh, I always have to laugh at the trolls.
--
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

Post by Don
If a Ford is a 4, then I'd have to say a Jeep would be about a -20.

Maybe

Post by Jerry Bransford

Post by Don
the CJ a -10.
Note I'm note talking about off road capability - no arguments there -

most

Post by Don
Jeeps do well there. Note I say most Jeeps - the Liberty being the
exception. Just plain reliability, mechanical, etc, the Jeeps fall apart.
Sorry to you Jeep lovers - just from my and every one I know experience.

Post by Paul Thomas
I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
safety features?
Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
has this problem )
I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
reliability?
Thank you all for your help,
Paul Thomas

[Joseph Oberlander]

Post by Don
Sorry if I pissed anyone off folks - no trolling intended.
Paul asked for opinions and I offered mine. Everyone I know that has had a
odern Jeep wishes he hadn't. Now to qualify that - I have not heard many
bad things about the CJ/Wrangler - these were all the Cherokee/Grand
Cherokee/Larado (sp?) models.
In addition, we bought a bunch of them as construction vehicles to supervise
an off road project - not a lot of mud - just a lot of rough terrain.

For a real project like this I would have gone with a used military vehicle.
That Unimog isn't going to break on you, I can guarantee it. Of course, finding
one is a bit tough.

www.real4x4.com Now that's a 4*4 :)

[rnf2]

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by Don
Sorry if I pissed anyone off folks - no trolling intended.
Paul asked for opinions and I offered mine. Everyone I know that has had a
odern Jeep wishes he hadn't. Now to qualify that - I have not heard many
bad things about the CJ/Wrangler - these were all the Cherokee/Grand
Cherokee/Larado (sp?) models.
In addition, we bought a bunch of them as construction vehicles to supervise
an off road project - not a lot of mud - just a lot of rough terrain.

For a real project like this I would have gone with a used military vehicle.
That Unimog isn't going to break on you, I can guarantee it. Of course, finding
one is a bit tough.
www.real4x4.com Now that's a 4*4 :)

one of my friends has two old ex-army mogs. one he replaced the engine with
one from a Combine Harvester. lots of low end torque and very little high
end power. so it's never going to stall but he's not very likely to set a
land speed record... lol

rhys

[TJim]

Pure bullsh*t.
--
Jim
--
98 TJ SE
90 SJ GW
http://www.delawareja.com/gallery/JDJeep98
"You can do any job in the world with the wrong tool if you try hard
enough..."
"4x4" in caps is "$X$"

Post by Don
If a Ford is a 4, then I'd have to say a Jeep would be about a -20. Maybe
the CJ a -10.
Note I'm note talking about off road capability - no arguments there - most
Jeeps do well there. Note I say most Jeeps - the Liberty being the
exception. Just plain reliability, mechanical, etc, the Jeeps fall apart.
Sorry to you Jeep lovers - just from my and every one I know experience.

Post by Paul Thomas
I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
safety features?
Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
has this problem )
I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
reliability?
Thank you all for your help,
Paul Thomas

[S. Akerstrom]

Post by TJim
Pure bullsh*t.

--

[Jerry McG]

Pure bullsh*t.<

Indeed, the later model YJs, XJs, and TJs are extraordinarily reliable
vehicles. 200k miles on a moderately maintained Cherokee or YJ is not
unusual at all, and TJs seem to run like a top forever.

[John Welch]

Post by Jerry McG

Pure bullsh*t.<

Indeed, the later model YJs, XJs, and TJs are extraordinarily reliable
vehicles. 200k miles on a moderately maintained Cherokee or YJ is not
unusual at all, and TJs seem to run like a top forever.

I sure hope so. I agonized with the wife over the decision to
resurect the wrangler after daughter with the purple hair totaled it.
I need 80k of daily driven miles to see the kids through thier
schooling. I am hopeful that the wrangler will hold up as well a
willys.

[Eastward Bound]

Post by Don
If a Ford is a 4, then I'd have to say a Jeep would be about a -20. Maybe
the CJ a -10.
Note I'm note talking about off road capability - no arguments there - most
Jeeps do well there. Note I say most Jeeps - the Liberty being the
exception. Just plain reliability, mechanical, etc, the Jeeps fall apart.
Sorry to you Jeep lovers - just from my and every one I know experience.

Post by Paul Thomas
I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
safety features?
Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
has this problem )
I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
reliability?
Thank you all for your help,
Paul Thomas

troll

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